Neil, at 4Simpsons Blog has just completed an excellent analysis of the twisted maze called progay theology. Neil noted something that we have said many times over: there is little convincing gay christians and their allies to use the Bible as a point of standard authority.
Neil writes: “To have a rational discussion on the verses referencing homosexuality you have to convince people in this group that the Bible is reliable and authoritative first. And that may be impossible.”
We found this out recently when we mistakenly took a BeliefNet forum on “Homosexuality and Christianity” to be a place to maturely discuss problems with progay theology.
Neil’s 4 part series is a must read.
Update: Neil has added a part five icing on the cake to his series on progay theology. Check it out!
Filed under: gay theology, homosexuality, scripture application
Hi – thanks for the link! I wasn’t aware of your site until I Googled my piece to see what was out there. Blessings to you and your ministry.
THis is interesting that you should feel this way. As a nonchristian who reads both sides of this debate about the scripture I see that exactly what you have stated about gays christians is what gay christian would have said about you. That is is impossible to have a rational discussion about what the bible says. Not that I can add more than the observation of that, but I think the observation in itself is noteworthy. It shows that neither side is willing to budge on the issue, therefore no one is going to figure out what they truth is. You say you have it, they say they have it. You both cannot be right.
I will continue to watch from the sidelines on this one!
Joe, it is a simple resolution. Neither I nor Neil or anyone else I know is claiming to be sole possesors of truth. However, we do believe that the Bible is true and applicable to judge human sexual relationships. Personally, I believe that while everything in the Bible is true, not everything is truth.
We are asking that there be one standard of judgment used by all who profess to be Christians. This is what the gcm refuse to do. One cannot claim to be affiliated with an established group and then refuse to be examined by the fundamental standards of that group. I think that Neil does an excellent job pointing out the obfuscating rhetoric of the gay christian movement.
Imagine attempting to adjudicate a legal issue in this country without the rule of law.
Everything we do, if it comes into contention, is then judged by the established rule of law.
The only difference according to the scriptures is that The Bible is not up for private intepretation or application to justify the sin of any individual. Therefore all transgression of God’s spiritual standards is to be judged equally regardless of the individuals claims.
Its our contention that all sexual sin is outside the will of God. Gay christians exempt themselves from that standard while refusing examination.
Intertesting you mention law. In a court, all interpretations would be put before a judge or jury to decide what is the truth. Who is the judge and jury here?
You state in your first sentence to me that you do not claim to have the truth. You follow that with, “the bible is true”. That is the claim you have the truth that you claimed you didn’t make or is that my interpretation? The bible may be true, but it seems that you all cannot agree about what it says.
My confusion and sometimes frustration comes into play with the question: Why does this matter?
Are you not all Christians?
Does it matter how or why you are?
Can you not find a way to agree to disagree on what the scripture says and let god deal with it later?
My questions about this are endless, but I won’t torment you with them. I just do not see why this has to be a cultural war, rather than a discussion of religious philosophy. Just my thoughts.
I meant to add, but forgot, and wil add now.
I sincerely apprecite the tone of this site. It is respectful to gays and lesbians while it expresses opposition. THat respect is appreciated.
Your terminology and choice of words have been respectful and set a wonderful example for others who disagree with gays and lesbians. I hope others can follow this example when expressing their opposition.
For that, I say thank you.
If youre not a Christian, youre really not expected to understand it. I don’t understand Buddhism, and to be honest don’t have a desire to.
The reference to the law was a comparison for you the non Christian. You asked who is the judge and jury. According to scripture, God is the judge, Christ is the lawyer and believers are the jury.
We are to judge “righteous judgment” (John 7) according the “evidence” of a person’s lifestyle compared to what scripture proscribes it to be. This is internal. We are not to judge nonbelievers, because in that state, God is their judge, alone. That is about as technical as I can be for a person who is not a Christian.
As far as the truth, no one can claim possession of truth, because it belongs to and emanates from God. We can only strive to live by truth and ecourage others to do so. That being said, it is not outside of our rights as Christians to defend (apologetics) and advance through argument (polemics) that which is truth. Notice there is a difference between true and truth.
And yes, Im making an intentional effort to deal with doctrinal issues and not people per se. At least where appplicable. The latter is unproductive to resolving the issue at hand.
Hi Joe,
Good questions. Christians diagree about many things, but in theory we agree on the essentials – Jesus is God, He is the only way to salvation, the Bible is God’s Word, etc.
Those are the kinds of things the church was founded upon, the Bible clearly teaches and countless martyrs have died for.
If people have preferences re. modes of worship (how often they do communion, grape juice or win, types of music, etc.) or something like that then that doesn’t bother me.
Many Christians are not well educated in their faith or the Bible. Fortunately, that is not a prerequisite to salvation (the criminal on the cross in Luke 23 trusted in Jesus and was in Heaven that day, but I doubt he knew much about the Bible).
We have tons of evidence for the life, death and resurrection of Jesus and for the accuracy and meaning of the Bible. That doesn’t make us right, but it does dispel the myth that we have a “blind faith.”
Peace,
Neil
P.S. I added a part 5 to the series that I am posting tomorrow (Sunday). I thought a summary was in order.
Joe wrote:
My confusion and sometimes frustration comes into play with the question: Why does this matter?
Answer: Because it does matter. There is such a thing as absolute truth. It is found in God’s Word. Man’s esogesis (what he wants it to say) never trumps the scholarly exegesis (what God is saying in Scripture).
Are you not all Christians?
Only God knows for sure, but Jesus gives us hints on how to recognize true, faithful believers:
Jesus answers that here:
Mat 7:20 “Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Mat 7:22 “Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
Mat 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Mat 7:24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:
(bold mine)
Does it matter how or why you are?
Not quite sure what you are asking here. What does matter is how one answers Jesus question:
“Who do you say that I am?” and Jesus’ admonition “you must be born again” (spiritually).
Can you not find a way to agree to disagree on what the scripture says and let god deal with it later?
He has already dealt with it, Joe.
My questions about this are endless, but I won’t torment you with them. I just do not see why this has to be a cultural war, rather than a discussion of religious philosophy. Just my thoughts.
It matters because the eternal life of all sinners (including homosexuals) is at stake.
Sorry these are hurried answers. I can clarify later if needed.
Neil,
Thank you for you well thought out answer. It always gets me a little when I hear people say they have evidence the bible is the truth. The fact is we have no evidence the bible is the truth, but some have faith. I can respect faith. You lose me when you say you have evidence. Exceptions of a few other writings (josephus,etc..) there is no proof the bible is truth. Most who I converse with on this quote the bible to say the bible is truth, but that is circular logic. The source of information cannot be the proof of the same source’s validity. If you believe the bible is the word of God and completely perfect, you do that on blind faith. There is no proof. If you have such proof, then you should be very rich by now.
More for me, it has nothing to do with the tennats of the Christian Faith. I well understand and respect those being brought up in a very religious family. (at one time I was set on being a Catholic priest). My issues in life with religion now lie in the contradictions of how people use their faith to make a stand while living a life and using a tone with others that is certianly against what I understand the bible to say. I guess it comes down to finese and presentation, yours being more of what I understand to be Christian than others I have spoken to in my past. I appreciate that sincerly.
Christine,
If only God knows for sure who is truly in line with his words, why does DL need a website to damn others who beliefs are not in line with what he believes the bible says and to call them wrong? No matter how you color coat it, no matter how many bible verses you use, no matter how many ways you present it, you claim you have the truth of what the bible says and claim someone else doesn’t. Anyone who claims they have a different truth gets a website to call their truth “twisted”. This ideolgy is much divisive for me as we cannot all be right. None of us will ever know who is right until… It is in that thinking that has me where I am spiritually and that is far from Christian. Sorry, but it can only be understood when you see how much my beliefs and core values believe in world peace. I believe the bible calls for peace as well. Something that will never come from this divisve view of the bible.
DL,
Just a note, Buddhism is not a religion persay, there is not a god in Buddism. The message of Christ and the message of Buddah are completely in harmony in so many ways. There is a book that is called “Jesus and the Buddah” that would explain it better. Most who claim to be Buddist have varied beliefs in God, and Buddhism’s teachings only compliment that. I don’t claim to be buddhist, but I do believe in many of the teachings of the philosophy that makesup Buddhism. I have read many books on Christianity, Buddhism, Islam and I am about to read a book on Hindus so I can learn about that. Just food for thought.
Thank you to all 3 of you for your responses.
Hi Joe,
I agree that it is circular reasoning to say the Bible is true because it says it is true.
You can’t prove God in the sense that you can prove that 2+2=4. But you can consider God and the Bible the same way we deal with most things in life: What does the evidence support? What is the most likely scenario?
I believe it is true for various reasons: The compelling messages from reliable witnesses, reliability of the manuscripts, the fulfilled prophecies (e.g., the Greek Empire’s rise and fall predicted hundreds of years earlier in the book of Daniel), the archeological evidence, and more. I wrote about why I believe the Bible is the true Word of God if you are interested.
Peace,
Neil
Neil,
While all in one paragraph you agree that the bible cannot be the source for the validity of the bible, you sent me to an article you wrote that states:
“While there is a lot of additional evidence one could point to, I think it is important to let the Bible speak for itself. What is the best way to let a caged lion protect itself? Let it out of the cage!”
I am not sure how you thought I would take this, but your article is more of a “staple” of how folks should use the bible as a source for its own validity. Did you think I would take this in a differnt light?
I apprecaite you attempt to answer my question, but you sent me to a resource that only addes questions. Would you be willing to find me a resource that actually answers the question, or just admit that it does come down to blind faith. Dl stated in his response that you have to believe to understand, but that is omnious of the question you have to understand something to believe. I cannot make myself believe something just because someone or something says it is true. I need more than that.
You could tell me a thousand times there are monsters in the closet, but if I cannot find them, if I can see any evidence of them, I have no reason to believe. Do you have a reason I should?
You could tell me a thousand times there are monsters in the closet, but if I cannot find them, if I can see any evidence of them, I have no reason to believe. Do you have a reason I should?
Joe, this is perhaps the single greatest barrier to faith in the Word, its origin and its authority. It is when one attempts to use externals and tangibles to prove the Bible right. Or…wrong, using a system counter to faith, namely one’s own intellect or evidence search.
Faith is not what church you attend or demonination you belong to. It is a supernatural (beyond what is considered normal) belief in something that cannot be proven with natural methodology. Anything that can be, is not faith.
Of course that does not exclude the use of scientific evidence as confirmation of faith, its just that faith (to the Christian) should be paramount.
Joe, I’m beginning to wonder how serious your inquiry is. Perhaps you are serious, yet perhaps you are another pretender. Nothing personal, but I’ve seen both kinds on the web and it is hard to tell. I have lots of the for the former but I don’t waste my time with the latter.
The reason I wonder is that you skipped all the reasons I did offer and jumped back to your blind faith straw man.
If you do care, here’s a book I’ve been reading that I thought had good content and was easy to read: Can we trust the Gospels?
There are lots of good apologetics sites (carm.org, apologetics.com, whatthebibleteaches.com, etc.) if you really are interested.
Excellent blog. Keep the great posts coming!
Christianity is a faith based on reason. Read the book of Acts, where the Gospel is presented 13 times and the focus is on the logic and evidence for the resurrection of Jesus.
Please consider these verses and read the first one especially closely. Keep in mind that Paul was arguably the greatest evangelist of all time. Yet the Bereans are lauded for being skeptical and not believing until they compared what Paul said with what was in the Old Testament. This is certainly not a “blind faith.”
Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Isaiah 1:18 “Come now, let us reason together,” says the Lord. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.
Matthew 22:37 Jesus replied: “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.”
Well Neil, I see you are questioning the seriousness of my inquiry and have a need to see that I am serious about this discusion. The answer is yes I am serious about this discussion, but I also see that perhaps you misunderstand the inquiry. I am not out to ask these questions so I will believe in what you believe. I am looking to understand what you believe and how you came to believe it. As you can see from my above comments, I have great curiousity about people’s beliefs. I have read books on Buddhism, Islam, and study the bible on my own for many years. I also went to Cathoic schools all of my younger years. I was required to take Biblical History classes to get my diploma, but I also grew interested in why people believe the way they do. I have grown curious why people are willing to leave the world divided over their religious beliefs, rather than learning to respect others beliefs. I do not agree with your beliefs persay, but I do respect them, I am interested in them from your view and do wish to learn more.
So perhaps it is not the seriousness you question, but whether or not you are willing to discuss these things with someone who is not going to buy into them, just learn about them.
I will say that as an obervation, you gave me quotes from the bible to provide reason for how your faith is not blind faith, yet in my opinion, as long as it is from the bible, it is blind faith. The bible cannot be the source ad proof of itself.
Perhaps, I will just say if you are interested in this conversation, my email is available on my website.
Only God knows for sure, but Jesus gives us hints on how to recognize true, faithful believers:
Yes Jesus does give hints, and you left out a very important one found in Mark 10:
21 Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.”
22 But he was sad at this word, and went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
23 Then Jesus looked around and said to His disciples, “How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!”
[removed due to violation of comment policy--Admin]
Jesus said sell everything, give it to the poor, help the widow, orphan, sick and needy; love others as you would love yourself and by doing those things you will be perfect and saved.
You just have taken a grain of the scriptures you are prooftexting in order to express bigotry. Good luck on the day of Judgment.
Joe, I’m beginning to wonder how serious your inquiry is. Perhaps you are serious, yet perhaps you are another pretender.
In my experiences with Joe for almost two years, he is a pretender. I pray one day he will walk in the Light.
“Godless” = those who hold a world view that Man’s wisdom, desires, and eternal truths supersedes God’s. Which ‘god’? The God revealed in scripture, the Holy Bible; 39 books of the Old Testament and 27 books of the New Testament. The Bible is the only written true revelation from God and other religious books are not.
There are those that are dead to God because they walk in darkness. If the words of the prophets do not change a man, not even a dead man raised will change them either. That is not blind faith, as Joe called it, that is an eternal truth with eternal consequences of Heaven and Hell.