Are gay christians the new gentiles?

27 Sep

They are if you believe the convoluted twisting of scripture courtesy of Candace Challew, editor of Whosoever Magazine. Whosoever Magazine is an “online magazine for gay, lesbian, bisexual transgender christians.” Thus, with that tag, the stage is set for some of the most incredible mangling of scripture since white slave owners used scripture to justify keeping blacks enslaved in America.

Challew, a lesbian cleric in the United Church of Christ, follows the popular trending of the gay christian movement in heavy handed use of replacement allegory. This method of interpretation gives the gay cleric unrestricted freedom to remove real or apparent contradictions between scripture and their current beliefs. Thus, they able to neuter parts of the Bible that stand in the way of their cleverly crafted, but false teaching. Practictioners of this roguish form of interpretation, replace clear scriptural truth and revelation with whatever cultural context fits their presupposed ideology.

That being said, let’s examine why this methodology is so fraught with error.
1. It removes real or apparent contradictions between scripture and personal ideology.
By using the parallel that gay christians are the new gentiles, Challew immediately posits a false supposition. Then using her brand of replacement allegory, she does away with the very obvious contradictions to said premise. Challew blames the problem on “those with more conservative beliefs are in an uproar because the church is including those with new ideas…which they deem sinful and unnatural.”

But the church has always went through the processes of examining “those with new ideas” so that’s nothing new. In fact, Jesus commended the the church at Ephesus (Rev 2:1-3) for doing just that:

To the angel of the church of Ephesus write, ‘These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands: I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary.

Our emphasis.

When any new doctrine is introduced to the church it must be tested —not against culture, science or popularity— but against the canon of scripture. If it does not find a place in the Word of God, we are commanded to reject it and rebuke those who have introduced it.

A major hurdle facing Challew’s false teaching comes from Acts 15. Because of a dispute arising from some Jews’ attempt to force new gentile converts to be circumcised as a prequisite for salvation, the apostles met in Jerusalem to resolve the matter. The outcome of that historic meeting set forth two clear standards for the gentiles. (a) they were to abstain from all forms of sexual immorality and (b) they were to abstain from idolatry, blood and strangled foods. If they did this, the Apostlic council said, they would do well.

Now, if the council commanded the gentiles to abstain (do not engage in) from sexual immorality, how then can Challew magically give her “new gentiles” the freedom to engage in sexual immorality? Simple: nip, tuck and wave away the definition of sexual immorality by blaming on “conservative uproar.” But as is clearly seen in Acts 15, the source of the restictions come from the founding Apostolic fathers of the church! And one to which the gentile converts received and obeyed.

Secondly, although Challew paraphrases the Acts complaint against the gentiles, she refuses to use the response to the complaint by Paul and the rest of the Apostles at the council. Instead she drops any pretense that scripture is nothing more than advantageous notation when one wants to prove one’s point. That’s why Challew uses Romans 10:11-13 to answer the complaint. But even with that, she willfully alters the text to fit her predetermined belief!

“The scripture says, ‘No one who believes in him shall be put to shame,’ For there is no distinction between gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, and straight; the same Lord is the Lord of all and bestows his riches upon all who call upon her. For, ‘everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.’” -Romans 10:11-13, slightly revised.

Her emphasis.

Slightly revised? Is that what a Christian does when the scripture doesn’t say what you want it to say? You just write in whatever words you want!?

Challew, tops off her allegorical revisioning with a gushing tribute to apostates like the “courageous” gay Bishop Vicky Gene Robinson while again casting blame on those who oppose their false teachings. Discord and shism in the church, according to Romans 16:17, is not caused by the apologists in the church, but rather by those who reject sound doctrine.

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25 Responses to “Are gay christians the new gentiles?”

  1. christinewjc September 27, 2007 at 8:04 pm #

    This supposedly “christian” group sounds a lot like the Nicolatians of Biblical times.

    Notice what the Lord Jesus Christ says about the “Nicolatians”:

    Rev 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

    Rev 2:15,16 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

    The difficulty that they should appropriate a name branded with infamy in Scripture is met by TRENCH: The Antinomian Gnostics were so opposed to John as a Judaizing apostle that they would assume as a name of chiefest honor one which John branded with dishonor. (end quote)

    Matthew Henry commentary:

    (Quote): 3. He knows the wickedness and the falsehood of their enemies: I know the blasphemy of those that say they are Jews, but are not; that is, of those who pretend to be the only peculiar covenant-people of God, as the Jews boasted themselves to be, even after God had rejected them; or of those who would be setting up the Jewish rites and ceremonies, which were now not only antiquated, but abrogated; these may say that they only are the church of God in the world, when indeed they are the synagogue of Satan. Observe, (1.) As Christ has a church in the world, the spiritual Israel of God, so the devil has his synagogue. Those assemblies which are set up in opposition to the truths of the gospel, and which promote and propagate damnable errors,—those which are set up in opposition to the purity and spirituality of gospel worship, and which promote and propagate the vain inventions of men and rites and ceremonies which never entered into the thoughts of God,—these are all synagogues of Satan: he presides over them, he works in them, his interests are served by them, and he receives a horrid homage and honour from them. (2.) For the synagogues of Satan to give themselves out to be the church or Israel of God is no less than blasphemy. God is greatly dishonoured when his name is made use of to promote and patronize the interests of Satan; and he has a high resentment of this blasphemy, and will take a just revenge on those who persist in it.(end quote) (bold mine)

    David Guzik commentary:

    Quote:
    iv. The Nicolaitans, like all deceivers which come from the body of Christ, claimed “not that they were destroying Christianity, but that they were presenting an improved and modernized version of it.” (Barclay)
    f. Which I also hate: These are powerful words, in that they come from our Savior who is so rich in love. Whoever exactly the Nicolaitans were, and whatever exactly they did and taught, we learn something from Jesus’ opinion of them. We learn that the God of love hates sin, and wants His people to also hate sin.
    (end quote) (bold mine)

    Jamieson Faussett and Brown commentary:

    Nicolaitanes–IRENAEUS [Against Heresies, 1.26.3] and TERTULLIAN [Prescription against Heretics, 46] make these followers of Nicolas, one of the seven (honorably mentioned, Act 6:3, 5 ). They (CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA [Miscellanies, 2.20 3.4] and EPIPHANIUS [Heresies, 25]) evidently confound the latter Gnostic Nicolaitanes, or followers of one Nicolaos, with those of Revelation. MICHAELIS’ view is probable: Nicolaos (conqueror of the people) is the Greek version of Balaam, from Hebrew “Belang Am,” “Destroyer of the people.” Revelation abounds in such duplicate Hebrew and Greek names: as Apollyon, Abaddon: Devil, Satan: Yea (Greek, “Nai”), Amen. The name, like other names, Egypt, Babylon, Sodom, is symbolic. Compare Rev 2:14, 15 , which shows the true sense of Nicolaitanes; they are not a sect, but professing Christians who, like Balaam of old. tried to introduce into the Church a false freedom, that is, licentiousness; this was a reaction in the opposite direction from Judaism, the first danger to the Church combated in the council of Jerusalem, and by Paul in the Epistle to Galatians. These symbolical Nicolaitanes, or followers of Balaam, abused Paul’s doctrine of the grace of God into a plea for lasciviousness ( 2Pe 2:15, 16, 19 Jud 1:4, 11 who both describe the same sort of seducers as followers of Balaam). The difficulty that they should appropriate a name branded with infamy in Scripture is met by TRENCH: The Antinomian Gnostics were so opposed to John as a Judaizing apostle that they would assume as a name of chiefest honor one which John branded with dishonor.

    David Guzik commentary:

    iv. The Nicolaitans, like all deceivers which come from the body of Christ, claimed “not that they were destroying Christianity, but that they were presenting an improved and modernized version of it.” (Barclay)

    f. Which I also hate: These are powerful words, in that they come from our Savior who is so rich in love. Whoever exactly the Nicolaitans were, and whatever exactly they did and taught, we learn something from Jesus’ opinion of the. We learn that the God of love hates sin, and wants His people to also hate sin.

    As the wisdom of Solomon attests:

    Ecc 1:9 That which has been is what will be,That which is done is what will be done,
    And there is nothing new under the sun. Ecc 1:10 Is there anything of which it may be said,
    “See, this is new”?
    It has already been in ancient times before us.

  2. totaltransformation September 27, 2007 at 8:33 pm #

    “Challew, a lesbian cleric in the United Church of Christ”

    How did I know the UCC was involved in this mess? Amazing.

  3. gcmwatch September 27, 2007 at 8:45 pm #

    I tell you this level of wanton and willful deception (can we call it that anymore?) is simply stuptefying.

  4. christinewjc October 1, 2007 at 5:53 pm #

    In my blogpost today, I included a brief description and link to this blog so that more people will hopefully become aware of this heretical movement.

    Excerpt:

    Those who are caught up in the gay christian lie, either choose to ignore, skew, or re-write the Scripture admonitions against such behavior; or, they are just totally ignorant of God’s final Word on the issue of homosexual behavior. It is unequivocably exposed as an abomination and sin before our Creator in the Bible. No amount of persuasion or compromise will ever overcome that fact! People may be individually led astray, and gay churches may form, but there will always be that faithful remnant of God’s children who will expose and oppose this heresy.

    Thank you, gcmwatch, for being a frontrunner and part of the faithful remnant of God’s childrenin this important area of Biblical Christian ministry!

  5. RevCandace October 23, 2007 at 8:37 pm #

    It’s interesting that while you criticize the magazine and our “misreading” of scripture, you can’t even manage to spell my name correctly.

    Who has the reading problem?

    Thanks for promoting the mag. I appreciate it!

    Blessings,
    Candace

    GCMW: Well, Rev. Candace, even with the name misspelling it looks like you knew exactly who we were talking about. The next time we write about your false doctrine, we’ll be sure to get your name spelled correctly so that there will be no iota of confusion about who we are referring to! As for the promotion or rather exposure, we consider it a service to the Body of Christ to warn about evil, false Christians with equally evil, false messages. What they do with the information is up to them.

  6. non-metaphysical stephen October 23, 2007 at 9:41 pm #

    Like the Pharisees, you hold so tightly to your reading of scripture that you miss the work of God in front of your eyes. When even conservative biblical scholars acknowledge that the seeming prohibition of homosexuality in the Bible may not be real, it’s time to let go of the traditions of men and see what God is doing in our midst:

    The fact is that God is calling and using his gay and lesbian children to do a might work of peace in the world — and God is choosing NOT to make them hetero! Judge them by their fruit, for God is a God who brings in those whom society has cast out….

    GCMW: Please list said conservative scholars.

    Secondly, it matters not what conservative or liberal scholars say, if they are opposite God’s truth, they are wrong. Someone being “hetero” as you call it is a moot issue. I guess that term is meant to register your disdain of the male/female relationship model. Heterosexuality is not salvation nor is it truth. Holiness is God’s standard. And if you live a sexually immoral lifestyle, and refuse to allow God to discipline you, you are bastards and not his children. Hebrews 12:4-12. Please relay that message to all “God’s gay and lesbian children” as you have so termed them.

    We have yet to see any proof that God has called any gay christians other than calling them to repent of their sins and be converted. They have for the most part, called themselves. There is a big difference.

  7. David October 24, 2007 at 2:56 am #

    Just a question (and in the interest of full disclosure, I disagree with your position but certainly understand how you derive it).

    You state that we must test doctrine against the canon of Scripture. From whence do you derive this principle? In Galatians, St. Paul is speaking of the message of the Gospel which he brought to the Church in Galatia, not the entire canon, which didn’t even exist at the time.

    In any event, even if you are quoting Scripture, calling anyone a bastard is not an act of love nor likely to open the ears of any GLBT person to your message of the Gospel. You may, as some do, think of it as tough love, but true love seeks to respect each and every person as the precious image of God and to reach that person with God’s generous love. Agape does not speak words of hate, but words of redemption, care, charity, love.

    GCMW: David, first did you read Hebrews 12:4-12 secondly are you calling Hebrews 12:4-12 “words of hate”?

  8. alexbeecroft October 24, 2007 at 11:51 am #

    “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.” (Galatians 5:4)

    “The entire law is summed up in a single command: ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’ If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out, or you will be destroyed by each other.” (Galatians 5:14-15)

    You whited sepulcres, do you really think that calling anyone ‘bastards’ is expressing love for them? What kind of disciples of the God of Love are you? Shame on you!

    “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way as you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
    Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.” Matthew 7:1-5

  9. RevCandace October 24, 2007 at 1:27 pm #

    Please do not take my failure to refute your criticism of my article as any indication that I find your critique valid. I certainly don’t but I learned a long time ago not to enter into futile arguments with dogmatists who have their minds made up.

    When I approach Scripture, I read it with an eye toward including more people in its message instead of excluding or condemning people. I am in good company, both Jesus and Peter did the same thing – expanding the reach of God’s love beyond human divisions and bigotry.

    You may huff and puff and pontificate until Jesus returns, but there are many gay and lesbian people who are faithful Christians and one day, just like the Gentiles, we will be incorporated fully into the body of Christ.

    I will proclaim that good news without shame or apology.

  10. gcmwatch October 24, 2007 at 1:48 pm #

    Lets be clear, Rev. Candace, we didn’t expect you nor were you invited to refute anything here. Apparently, it does bother you a great deal to have your false doctrine and gross misuse of scripture exposed. Otherwise, you would have simply went on “proclaiming the good news” as you say. Actually there is no defense of teaching false doctrine, so I can understand your not refuting what was written here. You would have to create more lies to explain the ones you have already told. Like the Bible said, you are a pawn of people who reject sound doctrine. People who have itching ears, so they flock to people like you to tell them fairy tales that make them feel good and “included”. You have been played and they in turn get played, by you. Supply and demand, if you understand.

    Our purpose, in case you didnt read the “about us”, is to expose the false teachings and false prophets of the gay christian movement. That would be you.

    Just like the false prophets before you, Im sure you have already self justified your scripture hatchet jobs and are probably well pleased with your work. That’s not my concern. My goal is to do as Jesus instructed us to do: warn others so that they can have the option and choice of following you into a certain destruction or choosing to follow Christ into everlasting life.

    Please make note of that.

  11. Gayle1957 October 24, 2007 at 2:00 pm #

    Sorry,

    It wasn’t there a minute ago, I promise ! The crow tastes quite fine, thank you.

    Gayle :)

  12. Mark October 24, 2007 at 2:19 pm #

    When I approach Scripture, I read it with an eye toward including more people in its message instead of excluding or condemning people.

    That’s your first mistake. Jesus commands us to repent. How could one repent, if the scripture as been abandoned? That (God’s word) reverend, is the cornerstone of sound biblical docrine.

    I am in good company, both Jesus and Peter did the same thing – expanding the reach of God’s love beyond human divisions and bigotry.

    No, they gave their lives telling people what they did NOT want to hear!

    I will proclaim that good news without shame or apology.

    Clearly you do not know God. Why would you, you have abandoned His word. You have reduced the need for repentence, celebrated unholiness, and do so without shame.

    Lastly, what “Good news”? Christ’s work on the cross is a buffet? Obedience and Judgement are terms only bigots use? Christ commands nothing of us? Sexual desires equal God’s will? Whatever works and feels good is better than what is right?

    DL, keep proclaiming the real good news! God’s blessings!

  13. RevCandace October 24, 2007 at 5:47 pm #

    Mark writes: No, they gave their lives telling people what they did NOT want to hear!

    Like I said, I proclaim inclusion just like Jesus and Peter. It’s certainly something you don’t want to hear.

    Blessings,
    Candace

  14. Kyle October 24, 2007 at 6:12 pm #

    Rev Candace,

    Inclusion yes, sin no. Where in the Bible did Jesus “tolerate” sin?

    Also, if God created them Man and Woman, why? What was the sense of creating male sperm with 23 chromosomes and a female egg with 23 chromosomes thus each individual having 46 chromosomes in essence a complete human?

    Why is the marriage supper of the Lamb a parallel to earthly marriage? i.e., The Bride (Church) and the Husband (Christ).

    Why do we find that sex was “both” for pleasure within the paradigm of marriage and for the procreation of Children?

    Why does your desire, i.e. homosexuality trump God’s will?

    Is homosexual sex “truly” equal to heterosexual sex when you compare the perfect design and fit for Male/Female intercourse?

    Why are male homosexuals more likely to contact diseases than heterosexual intercourse?

    Answer each of these please.

    Kyle

  15. gcmwatch October 24, 2007 at 6:22 pm #

    I proclaim inclusion just like Jesus and Peter

    In regards to Christian ministry, your opinions about yourself mean little unless they can find a substantiated home in scripture. One can easily draw abstract comparisons to Biblical characters, but in order for others to fully examine its validity, scripture in context, needs to be cited.

    You (and other gay christians) seem to intentionally avoid this crucial aspect of proving true discipleship.

  16. Mark October 24, 2007 at 6:52 pm #

    Rev Candace,

    First, God’s word speaks for me, it has nothing to do with I. God’s word teaches about sin, repentance, blessing and curse.

    All will not make him Lord. Only those who die to themselves and live in Him are His children. All are welcome at the foot of the cross, what one does at the cross is up to them. I pray you are not there helping them in a continued state of rebellion to God’s word.

    That’s why you admit Paul’s book of Romans is difficult. Why? because you continue to rebel against God. I am free as a slave of Christ. You remain a slave, a slave of the flesh, constantly in rebellion, justifying your desires over God’s. This will continue until you stop rejecting the clarity of scripture and it’s final authority. Until then you worship an idol, not God. Nothing new really.

    The grace of Christ becomes nothing more than a smoke screen and a way for you to justify your own lust driven conduct. You wilfully and knowingly use christian liberty to continue in lawlessness and entertain the opportunities for the flesh. See (Galatians 5:13 and 1 peter 2:16) You Rev Candace are not in line with Peter, and your message is deadly unbiblical.

    I pray you stop rebelling and repent.

  17. David October 24, 2007 at 11:46 pm #

    You didn’t answer my question, but questioned me instead.

    Yes, I am familiar with Hebrews 12:4-12. No, I do not believe that the author of Hebrews was spewing hatred. I think that you have deliberately used the word bastards to be hateful. Sure the Greek can be translated that way. No translator today would do so, however, because we have added additional levels of insult to that word. No one today would refer to children born out of wedlock as bastards because we instinctively know how hateful and cruel that word is.

    I also think you misuse the concept of God’s discipline as the author of Hebrews is using it. The author speaks of God chastising God’s children. However one may interpret that, I don’t see anywhere that God doesn’t treat gays and lesbians who seek to follow Jesus and differently that straights who seek to follow Jesus. You seem to imply that to be chastised or disciplined is to be pure and free from sin. It is not so. We all of us live each and every day in sin. Being gay does not incapacitate anyone from loving or seeking or following God.

  18. gcmwatch October 25, 2007 at 3:33 am #

    Additional questions were necessary because there was a need for clarification on your part. You seemed to have been caught up on the use and application of Hebrews 12:4-12. As a matter of fact you still are, perhaps unable to accept that your sin is the reason you are a spiritual bastard and not a son. You take issue with a word used to emphasize the seriousness of individuals who refuse to change their sinful ways, yet claim to be a child of God. According to the scripture, you are not. You mentioned “translators today” but provided no documentation to support that. Until then we can only treat it as more hypothetical posturing.

    “You state that we must test doctrine against the canon of Scripture. From whence do you derive this principle?”

    That is derived from scripture teaching.

    The Bible teaches us to prove all things so that we may hold fast to what is good and abstain from every form of evil (1 Thessalonians 5:21-22). We should pray to abound in knowledge and discernment so that we can distinguish between what is right and what is wrong (Philippians 1:9-10). “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1). Every preacher or teacher should be willing to have his teaching examined for its accuracy (1 Timothy 4:16).

    Jesus warned us against false prophets in Matthew 7:15-23. The standard we must use when testing declared Christian doctrines, prophets, teachers, preachers, etc is the will of the Father – the gospel (v. 21). It is the standard that measures every man. Everyone who does not conform to it will be rejected by Jesus (v. 23). The “fruit” the teaching must be in harmony with the Father’s will, the gospel (v. 16-20).

    Galatians 1:6-10 is applicable to the whole of Christendom. There is no indication from the text that it is intended solely for the Galatian church. The Bible has a universal application to every Christian unless stated factors specifically dictate otherwise. No such restriction is present in the Galatians text.

  19. Pamela October 25, 2007 at 6:36 am #

    Dear Sir,

    I have read this article with great interest and I’m praying for God to give me wisdom. I have several questions:

    Why is it that the church is so focused on homosexuality and not dealing with issues like adultery and the divorce rate in the church? It seems like it’s easy to forget that we are commanded to stay unmarried if we divorce unless we divorce for the reason of a spuse committing adultery.
    A: The church has to address the issues of the day which are demanding its attention. As the “salt and light” of the earth, the church must meet 21st century challenges with a proven, steadfast response. As with any social condition which impacts the church, to look away or to pretend it will simply go away is a great disservice to those who could be caught in its vice. I think that it is a wrong assumption that the church is not dealing with adultery and divorce. There are numerous ministries across the length and breadth of the nation which are laboring intensely to adequately address both. Of course we can’t list them all for you, but here is one and here is another. What the Bible says is true and righteousness no matter who “forgets” or sins. That is irrespective of who the individual is. Divorce is still wrong, and remarriage reasons other than Jesus stated is wrong. That’s our starting point.

    Jesus nor Paul ever commanded that slaves be freed. Paul said that they should seek their freedom and he commanded masters to treat them well., So what does that mean in light of what you’ve said about slavery.
    Believe me, I’m overjoyed that the slaves were freed and don’t want to go back to that system.
    A: You will have to cite the specific quote of what I’ve “said about slavery”

    What about instances in nature where two animals of the same sex procreate ?
    A: You will have to go elsewhere to get a discussion of animals, but it is a physical impossibility for anything of the same gender to procreate. What we know biblically is that God commanded Noah to place in the ark, one pair of male and female animals of every species. That gives us a clear message about God’s intention for the opposite sexes, even among animals

    As someone who was born a “bastard..” I’m so thankful that Jesus looked beyond circumstances of my birth to call me into right relationship with Him.
    A: I am thankful too, being born a child out of wedlock like 70% of black children today. But the bastard term used in scripture refers to spiritual relationship only. God has a universal benevolence for all his creations, yet his loving discipline is directed at those who are his children by virtue of acceptance of his authority. When you refuse that, according to scripture, God is not your Father. How you are born physically has no bearing on that.

    I’m so grateful that God remembers mercy and deals with us lovingly but firmly.

    “He who comes to me, I will in no way cast out.” Jesus.

  20. David October 25, 2007 at 2:14 pm #

    I am not a son because of my sin? I’m sorry, I was unaware that I had, at any point, shared with anyone here my personal life. I admit that I am amazed that any Christian would issue a blanket condemnation like that. An arrogant assumption on your part. If, indeed, my sin causes me to not be a son, then we are none of us sons, you included. For we all sin. You do not know my personal sins and whatever they may be, they are no more an impediment to God’s grace than your’s.

    GCMW: We can resolve that quickly.
    Are you a homosexual? Do you believe that it is sinful according to the Bible? If so, have you repented of that sin? If you have repented, are you still practicing that sin with no conviction in your heart? If you have conviction from the Holy Spirit, have you ignored it because you believe you have a right to feel that way? If you reject the Bible’s claer teaching on sexual immorality, then you are despising the discipline of the Lord, which calls on all of us to conform our lives to his word.

  21. Mark October 25, 2007 at 3:07 pm #

    David,
    Excuse me jumping in here, but you said Being gay does not incapacitate anyone from loving or seeking or following God.

    I believe you are correct in a real sense. The key word is ‘being’. The Lordship of Christ requires obedience, that is not to say we do not fall short daily. It is in fact a heart and mind change. It is not an intellictual exercise by any means. So much so that you die in the flesh and live in the Holy Spirit.

    “Being” gay, meaning embracing same sexual relationships is most assuredely living in rebellion to God. Anyone can seek, follow, and love anything. God’s Kingship / Lorship is not anything. It comes at a cost. Perseverence was somthing the writer of Hebrews knew well and pleaded we do.

    If the clarity of scripture eludes you or anyone, it is usually because they are not in the spirit of God. They cannot be His ‘sons’. When one stops rebelling against God’s word, they will see clearly. Our hearts will be deeply convicted of our sins and our pride will turn to humility and praise for our Savior Jesus Christ.

    If anyone teaches that sexual relationships out of one man and woman in marriage is holy before God, they have ignored and denied the authority of scripture, God’s word, and reduced God’s holiness to a sin filled wisdom. The fact that God meets us at our fallen sinfilled condition is nor never has been an endorsement of our sin, never.

  22. gcmwatch October 25, 2007 at 4:53 pm #

    You do not know my personal sins and whatever they may be, they are no more an impediment to God’s grace than your’s.

    Even grace demands change and conformity to the will of God.

    Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

    12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

    13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

    14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

    15These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

  23. Truthexaminer October 26, 2007 at 2:59 pm #

    Re: “I think that it is a wrong assumption that the church is not dealing with adultery and divorce. ”

    If you are saying that the church focuses on gay people as much as it focuses on adultery and divorce, I have a few questions for you. Why aren’t churches pushing for a constitutional amendment to define marriage as being between one man and one woman ONLY if neither have ever been married previously? Where is the Christian outcry against allowing divorced people to adopt? Why isn’t there a fight to make it legal to discriminate against divorced people in the workplace?

  24. gcmwatch October 26, 2007 at 3:12 pm #

    TE, you are looking for political answers. You wont get that from me. It appears the question was asked in the biblical context thus it was answered. Secondly, dont confuse the church with political groups who incorporate religion in some context.

  25. Mark October 26, 2007 at 5:57 pm #

    TE,
    Remember, God Himself threatend to ‘divorce’ Israel.

    God also called certain celebrated sins before His eyes an abomination. Clearly the ballot box at this point in American history reflects such views.

    Jesus clearly points his audience back to Gen 2:24 to remind the Jews about marriage, for they themselves had abused and loosend the divorce laws greatly.

    Those who have divorced and sought forgiveness, have one worldview. Those who embrace and celebrate perversion, have another worldview. Do the math and you’ll have the answer to all your questions.

    I am not religious, I am saved. That worldview often times will be in conflict with the worldview that does not include the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Since our governements and law makers consist of people, worldviews will be at play. No need to make it a ‘religious’ issue at all.

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