Carman interviews Walter Hawkins on TBN

28 Jan

I don’t want to prejudice anyone, but watch for yourself and tell us what you think of Carman’s interview (medium speed video) with Bishop Walter Hawkins. The show aired on January 24 and will remain in the archives until Feb 24th.

The interview with Hawkins begins at 1:08:10. If you dont want to view the whole program, you’ll need to forward to that point.

I will update this post with some background information on Walter Hawkins because it would be relevant to what he is saying on the video.

So, is the past really the past when you continue to associate with people who represent the worst of your past?

Walter Hawkins at Bishop Robert Taylor’s church in 2007. [youtube]

**Thanks to IC for the link to the Sylvester article.  It still doesn’t give the full monty of the Hawkins’ gay christian theology. The article is actually soft towards their false beliefs.  I think this is what both Carman and Hawkins were dancing around in the interview.

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31 Responses to “Carman interviews Walter Hawkins on TBN”

  1. eric January 28, 2008 at 5:14 pm #

    wow.. what an interview. So what are he and Carman trying to say? That because someone “worships passionately” they therefore SIN passionately??
    Also, what was Walter getting at about basically God using SIN to “humble his servants? I think i know where he was trying to go but it just seemed like they were ‘talking around’ something the whole interview (i can only imagine WHAT)……

  2. JJ January 28, 2008 at 6:05 pm #

    Well. Seems to me Bishop Hawins is serving notice to those who would look into his past and take issue with his current role as pastor/bishop/king of the hill.

    In fact, he had quite a unique rationale which saw his ‘fall’ as giving him an edge over other pastors. He is more relateable due to his fall or ‘other side’.

    Heck, I want to be relatable so I guess I better fall too!

    As for the theory that passionate worshippers, singers & preachers don’t turn off the passion when they leave the stage to explain why so many high profilers end up in lust-driven scandals…..WHAT A LOAD OF CRAPPP!!

    Here’s the truth: all that stage energy was carnal to begin with. It was of the flesh. And the flesh is hard to restrain, hence they easily go from the pulpit to the hottub with 4 babes.
    BTW, flesh that is put in subjugation to Christ doesn’t do that ( ie/ much of Paul’s writings).

    I guess that’s why God in the past has used stammerers, tongue-tied guys & quiet guys to speak for him. When they were empowered and came alive when speaking/presenting….they were emboldened by the Holy Spirit not their own charisma and talent.

    I think this whole TBN appearance is Bishop Hawkins’ effort to reposition himself. He’s repackaging himself as empathetic and relevant but with the small caveat ‘don’t look into my business’.

    JJ

  3. Phil S January 28, 2008 at 6:34 pm #

    I noticed that Hawkins said that he has a “propensity to fall,” but he doesn’t want to say what that propensity is. He said he’s fallen, but doesn’t want to say how he’s fallen, that it’s no one’s business. It sounds like he doesn’t want to give his testimony or help others who have fallen in the same way, whatever that is.

  4. gcmwatch January 28, 2008 at 6:38 pm #

    I was struck by Bishop Hawkins body language and how he and Carman appeared nervous and jumpy with each other.

    I know what the elephant in the room is, but why come on international Christian TV show and say “its nobody’s business”.

  5. JJ January 28, 2008 at 7:07 pm #

    “I know what the elephant in the room is, but why come on international Christian TV show and say “its nobody’s business”.

    No kidding….that’s just stupid.

    But like I said: Hawkins is on TV in an attempt to repackage/reposition himself. Not to help someone else with his testimony and all that.

    Just a PR move, folks.

    JJ

  6. Godlysoldier1 January 28, 2008 at 7:30 pm #

    I guess I need the ‘relevance” post because I do not know what’s going on or the reason for the post…

    GCMW: Did you look at the interview?

  7. Christinewjc January 28, 2008 at 7:43 pm #

    Hawkins may have appeared to dance around the heresy he was spewing. But he’s not fooling any genuine saints replying in this thread.

    Jude had him (and his ilk) already exposed way back in A.D. 65:

    Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. (bold mine)

    Paul saw the carnal nature of his type of false preaching, too:

    1Cr 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make [them] the members of an harlot? God forbid.

    Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

    I noticed how he lavished glory upon himself in that interview. No room left for Jesus…the ONLY ONE who is deserving of all the glory!

    Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

  8. gcmwatch January 28, 2008 at 8:58 pm #

    Considering that TBN has a harem of false prophets on air at any given time, I guess I should not be surprised at this.

    The audience probably didnt know what Hawkins was talking about either. At one point he tried to make it seem like it was that the church wouldnt accept his new gospel music he was singing. He and Carman even mocked them. But his sexual immorality was what was at issue.

    Love Center was the launching pad of Yvette Flunder.

  9. Rob January 29, 2008 at 12:12 am #

    I really didn’t get the contradiction when Mr Hawkins said on one hand when “they set out to perform, they were just singing for Jesus in the night clubs and praying and being in fellowship with God and each other, while some were accusing them of some suspicious activities- and on the other hand he admitted that he participated in activities that enabled to his falling… I don’t get it. There is a dead cat on the line.

  10. Pastor K January 29, 2008 at 6:05 am #

    Lets get to the point. The so called bishop is FLAMING. He reminded me of the two homosexuals from the 90′s comdedy show IN LIVING COLOR that used to snap their fingers and say…..HATED IT! And Carmen has become one of the biggest enablers for sin and compromise to date for TBN. Did anyone see his interview with Paula White right after her split with Randy? This interview is the same nonsense. Carmen interview style amplifies a perverted grace given to the celebrities of CHURCH LAODICEA and her members that have a carnal appetite for entertainment and fables.

    GCMW: Pastor K, well said. I saw the Paula White interview. It was shameful. Completely shameful thanks to Carman’s complicity.

  11. Independent Conservative January 29, 2008 at 6:13 am #

    What was “the other side” of John the Baptist’s life? How many people did Job kill? What dirt did Joseph REALLY engage in?

    That “passionate” comment was just…JUST EVIL.

    When people want to harp about what Paul did BEFORE he met Christ, you know things are heading in a bad direction.

    Using Hawkin’s logic, a pastor should not be a man above reproach, just rip 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 from your Bible if you want to hang with folks like Hawkins and Carman. Matter a fact, you don’t need a Bible at all to hang with them. Just be able to sell some records, act like you love Jesus while living like a heathen and they’ll call you.

    See this post and the related comments:
    Gay Disco Singer Sylvester Was Member Of Walter Hawkins’ Church?

  12. James January 29, 2008 at 7:21 am #

    I am shocked at his lack of transparency on the issue being skirted around. I have to agree, we all have the propensity to fall at any time and that fall may be of a sin that leads to death or one that does not. I don’t think he meant that he goes or went out searching for an opp to fall, but he acknowledges that “sin” is always present.

    Now I don’t emphatically know what he did or did not do, but he’s making it rather easy for the hearers to come up w/ conclusions about something he doesn’t want to mention. One of the things that bothered me is that as a preacher, he didn’t refer too much to the Word and repentance as a foundation for restoration after all this “falling.”

    As for the “Passion Theory,” that was almost silly. There are safeguards for that “passionate” person so that “falling” does not have to take place.

    Overall, his pride would not let him open up on camera. I mean, if he’s delivered then should he not take the opp to share his testimony that others may be healed and inspired?

  13. Sugacoles January 29, 2008 at 8:17 am #

    I’m not surprised about Bishop Walter Hawkins one bit. In fact, since he’s been out of the SPOTLIGHT, I’ve wondered how Humpty Dumpty was going to put it back together again. He’s starting to appear on TBN quite a bit in the past year, Something terrible is brewing deceitfully at TBN and is shifting very slowly. I’ve had my doubts about Carmen for quite sometime and now wonder if he’s a major player in this game. The church is too comfortable with sin!

  14. InWorship January 29, 2008 at 11:37 am #

    Other than Love Center being a launching pad for Flunder, what else is the problem with Hawkins? I’m not all that familar with him, other than a few songs. Never really follwed his career.

  15. gcmwatch January 29, 2008 at 12:56 pm #

    As Sugacoles alluded to, at some point in his career Walter with his brother Edwin became kingmakers in the gospel music industry. However he was notorius for requiring sexual activity with those (men) he helped to make it in the “industry”.

    That should be no surprise because it is now public knowledge that James Cleveland did the same thing.

    In March 1999, I personally interviewed a woman who later became one of the lead singers in TD Jakes Church. She had worked with several gospel groups in California before moving to Dallas. This is what she said :
    “It was common knowledge on the west coast that if you wanted to make it in the [gospel music] industry you had to ‘bend over’ for Walter.”

    I wanted to verify her comments so I called LCC and a woman answered the phone named Mary Catherine. I asked to speak with Bishop Hawkins. Since she appeared to be “screening” calls. I told her I was attempting to get his response to the comment told to me.

    She said: “I don’t know, you would have to ask him. I can’t speak for him on that, just like he couldn’t speak for me.”

    Fair enough I said, although it struck me as strange that she would neither deny nor affirm the comment. I asked if she was in any way an official spokesman for LCC and she replied no but her beliefs reflected the general church. I asked her what LCC believed about homosexuality.

    “Love Center doesn’t delineate or separate about someone’s sexuality. We just preach the gospel. We believe your sexuality does not affect your walk with the Lord. As you mature in Christ, the Holy Spirit will lead you into those areas”

    I asked her if I could make an appointment to talk to Bishop Hawkins and she said he was traveling. I asked her when he would return and she said that she didn’t know. I asked her who scheduled appointments for him and again she said she didn’t know.

    I got her drift and let that go.

    I also asked her about LCC’s relationship with Yvette Flunder and her church City of Refuge. Although a person (“Roshawn”?) at COR had already told me they fellowshipped with COR on a regular basis, Mary Catherine said “We are not in fellowship with Yvette. We fellowship with her from time to time. We don’t put her down about anything.” Roshawn at COR said that Love Center “fully supported their beliefs”.

    Note: This excerpt was taken from the article “A Tale of Two Churches”, which I wrote and published in March 1999 for the Stone Tablet newsletter.

  16. Yvette January 29, 2008 at 2:23 pm #

    The sad thing is, is that when you mention sin and how God truely hates it people laugh and say that the ‘grace of gawd covers it all’, or worse ‘judge not’. They have no clue that they are like dogs gone back to their vomit. Anyone who believes that all sin is ok with God because he knows our weaknesses has already been given over to satan, they just don’t know it yet. They have created for themselves a god who accepts sin and forgives it without repentence.

  17. Elder Jimmy January 29, 2008 at 3:21 pm #

    Y’all haven’t heard that passionate worshipper/passionate sinner before? It has been promoted by David Huggins at a conference I was at sponsored by Corletta Vaughn, also a bishop. It is an excuse for sinning. I suppose those who look for a reason for their failure or a rationale for repeated sin in an area would be attracted to this belief.

    I have heard someone teach that this was David’s issue. He was a passionate worshipper and a passionate sinner simultaneously. The doctrine of demons.

  18. Christinewjc January 29, 2008 at 7:28 pm #

    Pastor D.L.,

    You mentioned T.D. Jakes in your comment. Admittedly, I don’t know a lot about the man, so I went back to read one of your previous posts about him. He appears to be all over the pIace regarding his theological worldview.

    I wanted to mention something new that I recently learned about his brand of theology.

    This comment may be long, a bit off topic at first, but I will come back with a point that relates to this thread.

    In John MacArthur’s “The Truth War” book, he included the following end note regarding chapter 5:

    : Sabellianism is also sometimes referred to as patripassianism (from the combination of two Latin words meaning “father” and “suffering”) because, if Father and Son are merely distinct modes or manifestations of one divine Person, then the Father suffered on the cross. The same view is sometimes labeled monarchianism. Sabellian opinions have faded and revived repeatedy throughout church history. Sabellian modalism is essentially the same view held by “Oneness Pentecostals” today, of whom T.D. Jakes is the dominant media figure.

    Prior to reading this book, I didn’t really know what the false doctrine of Sabellianism was all about. Briefly, it was a dispute over the person of Christ which stressed the oneness of the Godhead to the extent of denying any meaningful distinctions between the members of the Trinity. He insisted that the unity of the Godhead rules out any possibility of three distinct persons. His heresy claimed that God simply manifests Himself at different times as different characters. It was referred to as modalism because he was essentially claiming that God has three different “modes” of expression…kinda like changing costumes.

    MacArthur: So in Sabellius’s system, the Father and the Son (or the Son and the Holy Spirit) could never actually exist simultaneously as distinguishable yet coeternal divine persons.

    Of course, we all know that such a heretical belief contradicts John’s gospel (i.e. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And, it conflicts with John 3:16 – (God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son..) Scripture reveals that Sabellianism (modalism) doesn’t make sense.

    O.K. Why did I bring this up? Because the next sentence in the book reveals how the gay “christian” movement is a different, yet related type of heresy.

    MacArthur: “Sabellianism therefore seriously clouded the doctrine of the atonement, and it likewise undermined practically every other major doctrine of the Christian faith.”

    Doesn’t that describe the gcm too? It certainly does!

    Then, it hit me. The apostle Paul was adamant about “teaching Jesus Christ and Him crucified.”

    What does the gcm do with such an instruction? They either minimize it, ignore it, turn “love” into compromise and excuses to sin, or, as D.L. has previously posted about that one homosexual pastor who publically came out and completely denied the cross of Christ; calling Christianity’s traditional teaching on Christ’s crucifixion for the sins of mankind is “repulsive,” “insane” and makes “God sound like a psychopath.”

    When I read that post back in November, I could hardly believe what I was reading! But it makes more heresy-driven sense to me now. I know that the gcm’s intention is not only to “cloud” the doctrine of the atonement, but to eliminate it altogether!

    As Yvette commented, “They have created for themselves a god who accepts sin and forgives it without repentence.”

  19. Elder Jimmy January 29, 2008 at 7:45 pm #

    I’m sorry, I forgot my main point. Worship transforms you. Everywhere in scripture where you see the true worship of GOD there is a transformation. People may struggle with the new life but there is no rationalization of the old either. See Isaiaf 6th chapter for a good example. Confession of Isaih’s sin was as a result of his beiong in the presence of the LORD. The response was worship. He was cleansed and then commisioned. This idea of being in the LORD’s presence as a worshipper and then running out to continue in sin is not scripturally founded.

  20. sleepy February 1, 2008 at 9:50 pm #

    As a delivered former gay woman. I have struggled with my relationship with God because I knew it wasn’t His will for my life. I grew up on a lot of the music that the HAwkins and Ricky Dillard put out and I’m really afraid for our young people. It’s very hard to walk away from your flesh but when you choose God and love HIm you have got to put away everything that’s not like Him. And I am a witness that whatever you starve will die. How can these people spend so much time in the ministry and not turn away from sin?

  21. Tony April 2, 2008 at 7:55 pm #

    Sleepy you are not being truthful about your ‘deliverance’ that is a bunch of rubbish ( Im sorry). There are only 2 possibilities to your assertion/claims of deliverance:

    1. You were bisexual all along, and as such can easily repress your natural homosexual inclinations

    OR the more often truth

    2. Sir, you are minimally confused or LYING about deliverance to fit IN and avoid eternal hellfire. (I have not had one acqauitance be delivered from homosexuality without returning to his natural homosexual order).

    TO THINE OWN SELF BE REAL MAN, your not kidding anybody

  22. pk150 April 27, 2008 at 5:02 am #

    can someone answer this question for me? can you be saved from homosexuality? can you be deliver from homosexuality? can you be healed from homosexualtiy? Because it you can’t then why do we believe in God. He can do the impossible like raising lazarus from the dead, saving Daniel out of the lion’s den, and saving Shadrach, Meshach, and Abandgo from the firey furance. If he can do that, then he definitely can deliver someone from homosexuality.

  23. gcmwatch April 27, 2008 at 5:30 am #

    Tony you live in a very small, God-LESS world to not know anybody who’s been delivered from homosexuality. without returning to so-called “natural order”

    What a small, shallow world.

  24. Kyle April 27, 2008 at 7:22 am #

    As with all manifestations of the flesh regardless of what they are once you are saved AND commit your life to Christ you enter the healing process and deliverance from SIN. Usually it’s NOT immediate like some like to say. However, with prayer and obedience things of sin “die”. I can look at my own life and look back at ALL the things God has delivered me from. Some were relatively quick while others were much longer.

    So when you have people claim that God made them this way then you assume that there is no Sin in homosexuality. This is bunk. God delivers people from Homosexuality, alcoholism, drug use, prostitution, lying, stealing, gossiping, anger, pedophilia, fornication, adultery, Islam, Buddhism, cheating, etc, etc. I can’t even list all the things the real God of the Bible delivers us from. The list is too long.

    Kyle

  25. Journeytaker July 16, 2008 at 6:14 pm #

    I have been COMPLETELY in the dark concerning Bishop Hawkins.!!! I grew up listening to their music, and just recently bought more of their vintage music on CD! I did not know that they toured with secular artists etc. Nor did I know of his affections gone awry! I absolutely love his music! Most of the songs are sound and scriptural. I was bragging that his music could still be played since you knew you were listening to Gospel unlike MOST of what is produced today.

    This is indeed sad to me. I may need to go back and really listen to those songs again.

    So what do we do with our collections of music that really ministers to us? I mean I have just about everything the Hawkins including Tramaine ever did! What about Daryl Coley too since he used to hang with Bobby Jones on his program as well as sing with them for a time?

    It seems that we will have to start writing our own music for our church services!

    I thank you for being a light in these last days. I appreciate your candor and simple dedication to tell the truth. God bless you!

  26. gcmwatch July 16, 2008 at 7:03 pm #

    JT, I have Shirley Millers’ album “I Must Go On” (Light) and she has been in a 20 year lesbian relationship with Yvette Flunder. I love that album. I gagged when I found out she was living a lie. But I didnt toss the album.

    “So what do we do with our collections of music that really ministers to us? ”

    I am going to have to do a post and answer that question and the person’s lifestyle of sin and their music.

    I know its conflicting to many people.

    Stick around and we’ll address it.

  27. KeepIt July 18, 2008 at 9:16 pm #

    JT – if the music ministers to you then can’t you keep it? If the music ministers then how can what these people do in their personal lives hurt you?

  28. Journeytaker July 22, 2008 at 12:51 am #

    gcmwatch stated:

    “I am going to have to do a post and answer that question and the person’s lifestyle of sin and their music.

    I know its conflicting to many people.

    Stick around and we’ll address it.”

    Thanks! I am looking forward to reading it!

  29. Camille August 29, 2008 at 11:00 am #

    I just threw out most of my cds. All of the secular artists and most of the christian ones also. I watched some dvds from G Craige Lewis about hip-hop and began to do my own research about some of these music artists. I don’t want anyone in sin ministering to me. How can they lead anyone in worship or usher in the presence of God? I know it is impossible to know if everyone is living holy, but when I find out that an artist is not living right, their music will not be found in my house. I am extremely selective about what I listen to and watch now. I had no idea about walter hawkins, but I am not surprised seeing as how many choir directors and musicians in black churches are just totally gay. I remember the song “Thank you, lord” when I was a child. I didn’t know that Ms. Flunder was a lesbian. Still no surprise. Look at Bobby Jones. And I just learned about James Cleveland. Did people really not know, or did they just not care?

  30. MsHair September 7, 2008 at 2:06 am #

    Having read the above posts, watched the Carmen interview, read the letter from Bp. Watkins, renouncing Bp. Robert Taylor’s involvement in his organization, I find one important element is missing. PROOF! Most of what is said is assumptions, conjecture and inference, alluding to homosexuality.

    Yes, Walter admitted to falling, and he was quite vague about what it was he fell to. Furthermore I don’t blame him for not putting “his business out” on national TV. Neither would I, and I ain’t never been gay! The fact is that some people will never let you live it down.

    It is not hard to believe that Hawkins may have been guilty of such sins, along with untold thousands, of others in the music field. (I HEARD that, that was the reason for his break up with Tramaine.) It was commonly rumored (“back in the day”) that James Cleveland was gay, and Bobby Jones does look a little “soft”. However, my sense of justice and fair play won’t allow me to accuse someone of something that I can’t prove.

    Let it be known that, I firmly and emphatically believe that homosexuality is an abomination, and not to be tolerated. If God will condemn fornicators, and adulterers to hell, he certainly won’t let homosexuals get by. I also believe that Jesus died to save them FROM their sins. Jesus’ blood saves from the gutter most to the uttermost!

    As for what to do with the albums and tapes… You might as well throw away most of your collection. I suspect that nearly 80-85% of gospel music is infested with homosexuals.

    On the other hand, what about the people who are saved, healed or even DELIVERED through their ministry! Walter didn’t do the work, the Lord did. I’m not advocating apostasy, I just know that people fall, and when they do they cannot sweep it under a rug, nor sugar coat it, it must be dealt with! Our job is not to become tainted by their weaknesses.

    Lastly, let us take the same intolerance toward pedophiles, womanizers, wife beaters, drug addicts, etc. who claim to be Christians.

    “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?” 1 Pet 4:17

Trackbacks/Pingbacks

  1. Jennifer Hudson Revisited « Jesus Christology - November 1, 2008

    [...] bad as the secular music scene if not worse, and moreover has been for quite awhile (see this and this). So it comes down to her choosing money and fame over the Bible, if not privately and personally [...]

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