Methods used to spread gay theology

Gay church theology ranks among the most egregious forms of biblical errancy confronting the Christian church today. Its two-sided operationality  encompasses all aspects of its evil desires. Side A is an intoxicating mix of feel good philosophy,  promises of safety,  well placed cultural platitudes, and a religious veneer bathed in the coating of false love. This is the gay christian movement’s public face.  Side B, the one intentionally hidden from public view, is an agressive mix of pride, arrogance, vulgarity, vengeance, and lust. This is the gay christian movement’s private face.

Many Christians coming in contact with gay theology are unsuspecting of its deceitful web because personal biblical study isn’t being stressed in Christian churches. Gay theology, with its broad declarations of “radical inclusion” and “loving acceptance” of all people is seductive to the many hurt and wounded walking in the religious realm.  It sounds good to the ear and appeals to the carnal man. Its the same tactic used against Eve in the garden.

Satan’s intent is not to frighten man, but rather seduce him with things and words and which appear on the surface beautiful, welcoming and harmless. This is why the gay christian movement hates the tough language the bible uses to battle sin. They avoid it at all costs, while instead focusing on broad issues of love minus moral restrictions.

For the individual who in conflicted with their homosexual inclinations in light of what the scriptures teach, satan offers a compromises.  Thus, the struggle with homosexuality is resolved by “reconciling sexuality with faith”.  No such reconciliation exists in the scripture nor is it a biblical principle. The only reconciliation the bible speaks of is man’s reconciliation with God through Christ. True reconcilation comes, not by adding a sinful identifier, but by renouncing one’s sinful ways.  Yet,  satan manipulates the person’s uneducated failures and offers the compromise: you can be Christian and homosexual. We need to point out that not all of those who are gay christians are victims of simple spiritual misinformation. Some have willfully rejected truth because they refused to give up their lust for members of the same gender. Neither did they want to give up the Christian facade they had grown accustomed to. The spread of gay theology can be directly attributed to its use of cultic methods which distort, deform, and disfigure scripture. Let’s review several of the most used methods of spreading gay theology within the Christian church.

INACCURATE QUOTATION: A biblical text is referred to but is either not quoted in the way the text appears in any standard translation or is wrongly attributed. See this story.

BIBLICAL HOOK: A text of Scripture is quoted primarily as a device to grasp the attention of readers or listeners and then followed by a teaching which is so nonbiblical that it would appear far more dubious to most people had it not been preceded by a reference to Scripture. See this story.

THE FIGURATIVE FALLACY: Either (1) mistaking literal language for figurative language or (2)mistaking figurative language for literal language. See this story.

SELECTIVE CITING: Better known as “cherry picking”. To substantiate a given argument, only a limited number of text is quoted: the total teaching of Scripture on that subject would lead to a conclusion different from that of the writer. See this story.

REJECTING BIBLICAL AUTHORITY: Either the Bible as a whole or texts from the Bible are examined and rejected because they do not square with other authorities – such as reason or revelation = do not appear to agree with them. See this story.

WORLD-VIEW CONFUSION: Scriptural statements, stories, commands or symbols which have a particular meaning or set of meanings when taken within the intellectual and broadly cultural framework of the Bible itself are lifted out of that context, placed within the frame of reference of another system and thus given a meaning that markedly differs from their intended meaning. See this story.

Adapted from Scripture twising methods of the cults by James Sire.

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50 thoughts on “Methods used to spread gay theology

  1. Rev. Foster,
    You have listed a good list of how you believe gay christians twist the bible to fit their cause. I see that you refer to Cherry Picking as one of those attributes. I feel a but confused by this and have a need for you to clarify for me this point. You seem to be claiming gays cherry pick, but it is my undertanding of the bible that ALL Christians cherry pick. In fact, I would say it is impossible to live in today’s society and not be a cherry picker regardless what side you are on when it comes to GLBT folks.

    My request of you would be to explain for me how you can accuse gay CHristians of doing something everyone does which is cherry pick. The bible is filled with stuff even the most devout ignore. It is impossible to be a Christian and not cherry pick to some degree or you would be thrown into an institution as a serial killer.

    Can you explain this? I believe these are the issues of duality that divide us as humans. You see the book one way, someone else another way. Rather than empathize and understand the other sides view we are promote the other side as wrong.

    I am an atheist, I do not believe it is possible to live or believe in the bible without cherry picking. This was one of the main staples that had me loose my belief in god. The fact you are accusing Gays of this is amusing since I think you do it too!

  2. The bible is filled with stuff even the most devout ignore. It is impossible to be a Christian and not cherry pick to some degree or you would be thrown into an institution as a serial killer.

    “Serial killer” ? Perhaps you confuse the reality of God’s judgement with man’s desire to be godlike since the begining of time? Perhaps you are incapable of understanding literary devices of ancient near eastern writings. Perhaps Psalm 137:8-9 troubles you Joe? Or is the fact that God is King, His rule is eternal, and He does whatever He pleases that makes you live in rebellion to Him?

    If your honest Joe, you will admit that you don’t like God, in fact you hate God and you hate the Bible and you mostly hate its exclusive claim to truth and salvation. That’s why you walked away and why you hate those who speak the truth with authority. No amount of love, kindness, or humility could be shown to you, you will still hate.

    I know, in your world the above comments are hate speech, another “method” to corrupt sound biblical advice.

  3. Mark,
    That was a lovely attack on me as a person, but you did not address the core content of my reply. I feel sad that you could not address the honest points I made. I would have liked to hear a reply. I would like you to address the issue and without attacking me because I don’t believe, but helping me understand what it is you believe.

  4. Just so we understand each other Mark, I don’t hate god. I don’t believe in god. It is not possible to have feelings of love and hate for something you do not believe in. I am happy to chat with you about this anytime, but I would feel much better if you would treat my beliefs with the same respect that you are asking of your own.

  5. To Joe Brummer…You obvioulsy DON’T know about the methods of proper biblical interpretation or scriptural contextualization. In order to understand the bible you must understand the transition from Old Testament Law to New Testament Grace and Truth. I see you also need a lesson as to what parts of the Law were “fulfilled” in Jesus and what parts are extant or continued under New Testament teaching and practice. For example, homosexuality and certain types of foods were condemned in the book of Leviticus. However, certain types of foods were made acceptable through Apostolic teaching and example while deviant sexual practices such as HOMOSEXUALITY continued to be condemned in many New Testament passages and books such as Galations, Romans and the Gospels and others. This is not reading to “cherry pick’ this is reading to what the scripture says to “rightly divide” the TRUTH. To understand this any other way is to TWIST the scriptures to FIT YOUR VIEWPOINT. This is a classic technique of the sodomite and one that people who know their WORD can see through easily. GCM is ON POINT 100% and I affirm this on my blog at http://www.Bethelburnett.blogspot.com. Keep up the good work GCM!

  6. Hey Joe,

    You know sometimes it is creation itself that can make one believe in God. Have ever thought of how brilliant and intelligent the Big Bang must have been to create millions of life forms all perfected for each environment? Have you ever wondered how brilliant Einstein was, but compared to primordial soup he was a mere dolt? Have you ever wondered how simple amino acids were so brilliant they could create us feeble humans who could fly into outer space? Have you ever wondered how evolution with no physical brain could create brilliant humans? You see Joe instead of looking at this from any pre conceived notion about the bible try to figure out the marvelous complexities of “everything” and you will then come to the conclusion that there is a God. Trust me on this. Just ponder. From there we can discuss just “who” is God and “what” was his purpose. in fact I would like to give you a starting point and suggest this website for you to read.

    http://www.icr.org/articles/type/8/

    http://www.nwcreation.net/biblechrono.html

    Hope to hear from you soon!

    Kyle

  7. Joe, I was not attacking you. I simply stated, you don’t believe in God because God is King, and you will not serve Him. You implied God of the Bible is a serial killer and anyone who adheres and lives by its teachings should be in a institution.

    I do not speak for anyone here, but I would defend every single text of scripture and never once need to cherry pick anything. That Joe, is you presupposition, and it is false from the very begining. You never cite one example of cherry picking, you just assumed it then ask why one does it. If anything, it appears DL’s willingness to use all of scripture and supporting its authority is what you find so offensive. No one is making you beleive anything, some just are not as offended by God’s kingship as you are.

  8. Joe,

    It is obvious to me that you are not looking for answers. You are trying to get “respect” for your atheistic beliefs.

    I recently did a post about a man who claims to be an atheist/agnostic/skeptic and wrote three books designed to trash Christian beliefs.

    Why did he do that? Because he hates God, Jesus Christ, the Bible and Christian believers so much that he has made it his life’s goal to battles against it all. He also desires to take as many people (including children) right along with him into his place of non-belief oblivion. So, made his first book into a film called “The Golden Compass.”

    I don’t know if reading my counter argument to his “beliefs” would satisfy you. But, perhaps you might finally realize why your beliefs can’t gain the respect that you desire from Christians like Mark, DL, and I. [Note: Mark and DL, hope it’s OK to include you guys here]

    Here a link to the post: Warning: Avoid “Dark Materials” Trilogy

  9. Joe, “cherry picking” is wrong no matter who does it, but my pointing it out as a fundamental methodology of gay christian movement is in context to all cults who engage in the same behavior.

  10. Pastor Burnett,
    Thank you for the scolding. I am aways happy to have someone tell me what I do and don’t understand.

    Mark, I no where stated god is a serial killer. Please reread my thoughts. That was not one of them.

    DL, thank you for yuor reply. It met my need to understand your context.

    Kyle, Thank you for your thoughts on creation, but I didn’t come to my conclusions about god overnight. It is unlikely you will change them in a post on a website. Even if you where to convince me there is a god, you would then need to convince me he cares about our existence. Then you would need to choose one of the many gods there has been over the course of history and convince me yours in the “one”. Do you really think you can do that in one post?

  11. Christine,
    I saved you for last….

    your wrote: “It is obvious to me that you are not looking for answers. You are trying to get “respect” for your atheistic beliefs.”

    I reply with:
    Thanks for telling me what I am doing. But your evaluation is so off base I have no reply. I wouldn’t even know what to say other than I don’t connect with your worlds in anyway. YOu are making evaluations of what you think I think. I am not sure how that is going to connect me to what is alive in you or connect you to what is alive in me.

    The rest of your post was a commercial for me to read your other stuff. It was not a personal reply to me. I would prefer and feel more content to have you reply to me. Not send me to your reply to someone else.

    I don’t need respect for my lack of belief, nor am I interested in changing my beliefs. I am interested in what and why you believe what you do. You all seem more concerned with me than you.

  12. Mark,
    It is not possible to read and believe the bible without cherry picking. It just is not. If you believe you can prove otherwise I am willing to hear you, but I am doubtful you can rationally claim otherwise. If you have not smithed your neighbor or put those found guilty of adultery to death you are cherry picking.

    It is not possible to read any other the text without picking and choosing what works and doesn’t work for you.

  13. Joe,

    You did ask for respect for your beliefs:

    Joe wrote: “I am happy to chat with you about this anytime, but I would feel much better if you would treat my beliefs with the same respect that you are asking of your own.”

    You accused me of being off base with my evaluation of your motives. Then you wrote this:

    “I don’t connect with your worlds in anyway.”

    Then, you reject reading my post.

    The thing is, Joe, that if you would read that post you could, possibly “connect” with my “world.” On the other hand, you may not be able to discern what is written. If that is the case, then perhaps you might see exactly why you don’t connect with Christian believers. Your spiritual eyes are shut down. Only faith can re-awaken you, Joe. Ultimately, that is the reason why you can’t see or understand what we are sharing with you.

    Please know that this doesn’t have anything to do with intellect. I know that you consider yourself a smart man. But that quality alone will not help you gain the wisdom that you so desperately need from God’s Word. My post reveals why this is so. Not just for you personally, but all atheists and/or non-believers like you and Pullman.

    I don’t need to be “connected to what is alive in you” Joe. I already know what is at work in your heart, mind, soul and spirit. How do I know this? Because I have been a victim of unrepented sin, too. I was never an atheist, but I had my moments of doubt about God’s goodness. However, it was precisely those moments of doubt that ended up solidifying my faith because God turned them for good. The mini-miracle of this and other spiritual experiences which were unquestionably from God Himself has deeply confirmed my commitment and love for my Savior, Jesus Christ. Nothing that could ever happen to me on this earth (good, bad, or inbetween) could ever compare to what our Lord has done for us at the cross for all eternity.

    You appear to be searching for proof of your decision to embrace atheism. You don’t appear to be willing to give that up and allow God to touch your soul in a personal way. The BIble says, “without faith it is impossible to please God.” You can’t please God when you don’t believe that He exists in the first place. What’s more, it is impossible to please God without faith.

    Your need for proof is due to unbelief. That is obvious. Yet, you are not willing to humble yourself in order to see what God has done for you through Christ at the cross.

    Prideful and unbelieving men say, “I will believe it when I see it.” God says, “Believe it, then you will see it.”

    See the difference?

    My post discusses all of the seven satanic deceptions often used as schemes and devices to steer people away from the truth of God’s Word which can lead them into a devastatingly error ridden place of existence.

    The Bible warns us not to be ignorant of satan’s devices.

    2Cr 2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

    Joe, either you are ignorant of his devices or so willingly wrapped up in them that your pride of self and this life has blinded you to this fact.

    Since you don’t want to read my post, just look in the mirror today and ask yourself whether or not you have been guilty of any (or all) of the following deceptions:

    1. False Doctrine

    2. Lust (includes vanity, jealousy, greed & physical lust)

    3. Pride, Vanity and Arrogance

    4. Lying

    5. False dreams, Visions, and Miracles

    6. Bitterness

    7. Lack of Faith

    Oftentimes, the first six errors lead right into #7 – creating a Lack of Faith in the non-believer.

    If you are honest with yourself, Joe, you will have to admit to being guilty of many, if not all, of those deceptions.

    I have been guilty of them all in the past.

    Admitting our guilt is the first step towards repentence.

    Will you take the next step, Joe?

  14. Christine,
    You seem very upset in your reply. You seem insulted that I didn’t go read your post. Are you needing me to know something you couldn’t email me or talk to me about otherwise? I have your blog on my blogreader. It has been there for over a year. I scan most of the posts you write.

    I feel at a loss Christine, I see in your reply that you put more words in my mouth than expressed of your own. Let me help clear some things up for you.

    You wrote:
    Your spiritual eyes are shut down. Only faith can re-awaken you, Joe. Ultimately, that is the reason why you can’t see or understand what we are sharing with you.

    my reply:
    Spiritual eyes are shut? Faith? Christine, I simply do not believe in god. No amount of blog posts will change that. Faith will not change that either. I spent the last 15 years of my life exploring “faith” and came to the conclusion that even if there is a god, I don’t believe it is the god of the bible. You have no amazing thing you can say to change that. I didin’t come to that conclusion overnight. It tooks 15 years. I am curious how you believe you could change my decision in a inpersonal blog post.

    You wrote:

    I don’t need to be “connected to what is alive in you” Joe. I already know what is at work in your heart, mind, soul and spirit. How do I know this? Because I have been a victim of unrepented sin, too.

    I reply:
    You have no idea what is really alive in me Christine. YOu think you do and that is the reason you don’t. That is true of most people. We assume we know what is going on in them. It is that which stops us from really seeing others as they are not as we think they are.

    Christine wrote:

    The mini-miracle of this and other spiritual experiences which were unquestionably from God Himself has deeply confirmed my commitment and love for my Savior, Jesus Christ. Nothing that could ever happen to me on this earth (good, bad, or inbetween) could ever compare to what our Lord has done for us at the cross for all eternity.

    My reply:
    Here is a place we can talk about the reasons I do not believe. I do not believe in miracles. When I see someone pray and grow a new arm, I might. In the meanwhile I do not believe.

    Christine writes:
    Prideful and unbelieving men say, “I will believe it when I see it.” God says, “Believe it, then you will see it.”

    My reply:
    What I hear you saying here is “believe it then you will convince yourself of it” The heart of the matter is no one can force themself to believe anything Christine. It is impossible to force yourself to believe in god when you don’t. Try it, make yourself believe in Thor or Zues? Why would you deny those gods but feel fine with the one you have chosen? WHy deny Allah or Ganesh but then seem amzaed that someone doesn’t believe in the same god as you or no god at all? DO you see the lack of transperancy in that?

    Christie writes:
    Joe, either you are ignorant of his [satan] devices or so willingly wrapped up in them that your pride of self and this life has blinded you to this fact.

    Joe replies:
    I don’t believe in Satan. I find the concept of Satan as one of the bigger pieces of why I stopped believing in the god of the bible. Who created Satan and why does he have all the same powers as god? Why would this “god” create a being that would torutre the beings he says he loves? That is twisted.

    Christine writes:
    If you are honest with yourself, Joe, you will have to admit to being guilty of many, if not all, of those deceptions.

    Joe replies:
    I have been guilty of numbers 2, 3, 4, and 6.

    Number 1 requires me to believe in a doctrine, I don’t.
    Number 2 – duh, I am human.
    Number 3 – See number 2
    Number 4 – See number 2
    Number 5 – Miracles? How can you be guilty of miracles? and no I have never had a vision or a false dream. I have had many dreams I believe where my subconscience speaking to me but I don’t think I ever get the message either way.
    Number 6 – Yes, but no such much as I get older. I have truly learned ways to see people that have helped me to leace bitterness behind.
    Number 7 – THis is not something one can be guilty of. It sounds like one should be punished for a lack of faith. As I explained, you cannot force yourself to have faith. Try it, make yourself believe in something.

    I feel this is a good dialogue. I am happy that you are willing to have this conversation. I hope it continues.

  15. Joe,
    Time and space does not allow a full discourse on your points. May I suggest you ponder:
    1. God is holy. His law was given to protect His people and keep them holy. Violating His law required death in many instances. Do we stone to death offenders today? No. Why? Christ on the cross and we are not Israel living in the ancient near east for starters. Does every law God gave have a moral deminsion to it? Yes, Why? God gave it. There are many NT texts that illustrate this concept. Remember, the Bible of Jesus was indeed the hebrew text.

    If you did not know satan, evil, or suffering, you could not know God’s grace, love, and eternal peace and joy, no?

    I know on many occasions all of this has been expalined to you quite well. Put down what ever your reading and pick up a good study Bible. The root of all apostacy, the fear of me is not in them.

  16. Joe wrote: “If you have not smithed your neighbor or put those found guilty of adultery to death you are cherry picking.”

    Joe, you’d make a good Pharisee, but that’s SO 2,000 years ago, LOL! 🙂 Every thing has to be read in context, and Old Testament writings need to be interpreted in the light of New Testament revelations. On adultery, see the story of the woman caught in adultery (John 8:-11). Jesus didn’t stone her, rather he told her to “Go and sin no more.”

  17. Mark,
    I am feeling stuck. You seem to be on a mission to “change me” or tell me I didn’t understand, or didn’t read enough verses or am reading the wrong things. I feel you are more interested in me seeing it your way then seeing what I am really saying.

    I am feeling that you have already come to some conclusion about why I no longer believe in god. I can tell you it is not for a lack of understanding Mark. It comes from the clarity of understanding for me.

    Perhaps it would be helpful to this conversation if you could look back at my first post above and summarize what it is YOU think I am saying. That way we can see if you are understanding me. Perhaps I didn’t articlutae myself well enough and you are not understanding my point about “Cherry picking”.

  18. Joe,

    Phil just answered your “cherry picking” accusation. Did you not notice that?

    Within my new post at Talk Wisdom, I mention something similar to what Phil pointed out. We are to regard what’s written in the Old Testament through the added revelation of the New Testament.

    Excerpt:
    The Ten Commandments show us what’s wrong with our lives. The Old Testament is like a mirror of reflection that identifies our sinful nature. However, like a mirror, it doesn’t show you how to fix it.

    The purpose of the New Testament is to show us how to fix it.

    In your last comment to me here you admitted to being guilty of violating God’s Laws through several of the tools of deception listed. Admitting guilt is the first step towards repentance.

    Will you take the next step, Joe?

  19. Joe,

    You wrote: “Who created Satan and why does he have all the same powers as god? Why would this “god” create a being that would torutre the beings he says he loves? That is twisted.”

    Satan is a fallen angel, formerly known as Lucifer. His pride of self caused him to want to be worshiped as a god rather than worship God Himself. He and a third of the rebellious angels fell from heaven because of this. He and his demons are actively trying to get you not to trust or believe in God. You may think that you are acting completely on your own, but the truth is that you are as much in rebellion to God as he (satan) is.

    You may not want to believe that satan exists, but it doesn’t mean that you are correct. Jesus confirmed the reality of satan’s existence both in God’s Word and when he was on this earth. All that transpired between them is written in the gospel accounts. The triumph of the cross of Christ means that satan is doomed for all eternity. At the culmination of history, the great battle for the hearts and souls of men will be over. Depending upon where you place your faith, you will end up in one “camp” or the other…so to speak.

    Jesus is a real, historical figure whose resurrection is a fact. I would believe what he has to say about satan rather than any finite man on this earth.

    Satan’s biggest deception is to get people to believe that he doesn’t exist. Looks like you have fallen into his trap, Joe.

    I pray that one day you will heed’s the Holy Spirit’s call when he knocks on the door of your heart (this is being done each time a Christian presents the gospel message to you, Joe).

  20. I didn’t articlutae myself well enough and you are not understanding my point about “Cherry picking”.

    Humm, imperfect folks pointing out the error in other folks, perhaps? Like I said, a good study bible JB. You have no more interest in seeking God than I have in watching grass grow. Proclaiming the good news of Christ, rebuking false teachings, removing the evil from the presence in the church, has been and will continue to be done by imperfect men. I am not attacking you when I say this, but you clearly are appauled at the exclusiveness of God’s word and Jesus Christ. The clarity and authority of scripture is an insult to your worldview. When folks refuse to adopt you language of ‘respect’ or ‘tolernace’ you call that cherry picking the scripture. Circles make me dizzy.

  21. Again, Christine you are more interested in preaching to me or tryig to convince me you are right than you are having a dialogue. True dialogue is about seeing the other person point of view and empathizing with it. Truly understanding it. I would feel so good if you would stop trying to convince me you are right and actually ackonlwedge you have heard and understood my point of view.

    As for Phil, I did see that but have not replied. I used two examples of cherry picking but I could list dozens. Phil, you choose to answer to those particluar cases but I was more refering to the “idea” of it more than the actual cases piece by piece. If you want to answer to each and every “cherry pick” we would be here for years,

  22. Joe,

    I didn’t try to persuade you. I asked a series of questions regarding creation and was wondering what you thought. There is nothing wrong with bringing a question to ponder. Once we have an exchange of ideas then we can see what postion has more merit. From there we can debate and move on to other things. My attempt was to establish a very BROAD base that we were created by an intelligent force. From there of course (I am a Christian what would you expect) I would attempt to bring the focus on Christ. Seriously Joe I will not beat you over the head I am attempting to start a dialog though.

    Kyle

  23. Kyle,
    Perhaps I misread the intention of your questions. It would appear that your are saying that there must be a god because the world obviously had a designer. Would that be a correct assumption?

    Next, Kyle I would like to know how you feel about the “cherry picking” question I ask in the first comment. I have not really heard an answer that met my request for information.

    Also, I invite you to send me an email to the address above. I do not want to “hog” up DL’s site with this discussion unless he is comfortable with that.

  24. Thanks Joe for your comments. I want you to know that I respect you as a human being and creation of God, even if you dont believe in Him.

    A couple of weeks ago I had a indepth and very personal conversation with an athiest man. To say the least it was one of the most rewarding talks I have ever had with anyone.

    He wasn’t trying to change me and I wasnt trying to change him and we talked frankly without disrespect of each others beliefs. I think that was possible because we saw the commonality of our humanity.

    I think you know that I have zero acceptance of homosexual ideology whether religious or not, but I relish talking with people who understand that we have a common bond and yet we can be completely opposed to each other’s beliefs.

    I do not condemn you, and Im sure you already know that if I had the chance to talk to you face to face, I would hold fast to what I believe while respecting your personhood.

  25. Joe wrote:

    “Phil, you choose to answer to those particluar cases but I was more refering to the “idea” of it more than the actual cases piece by piece. If you want to answer to each and every “cherry pick” we would be here for years.”

    Hi Joe, I answered the only example of cherry-picking you provided and gave a general principle of Biblical hermeneutics that can be applied to many similar cases. I did answer your question in a satisfactory manner, even if you don’t think so. I’m not interested in an idle exercise of Pharisaism any more than you are.

  26. DL,
    You share an excellent point with your recent encounter with an atheist. Perhaps you remember Robert Bayn? A kid I truely came to love. We do not agree, and I often times can’t stand what he says. I believe God placed this young man in my life and has taught me whether I am right or not in God’s eye, this is a person God desires. In that we all share a bond that I oftne times forget or shove aside

    I need to adjust my heart, not the message. Hell is real and so is Christ’s work on the cross. If I am working in the spirit of Christ, I should be shedding tears in real grief for those who reject him. I am guilty of not feeling that way all too often.

  27. oh wait, I have thought about this more and apologize for my quick response. I really should have said,……DL what are you saying because it is not clear…..

    GCMW: You have COMPLETELY missed the point of my comment. I would suggest you re-read it. It is the opposite of the conclusion you came to.

  28. lastly,
    I think Joe Brummer needs the dust of (my )shoes on his door step as I walk away. Vomit and Dogs returning come to mind.

  29. you wouldn’t Joe, my mistake. Can you help save me from God’s judgement? or make me a better slave to Christ? or direct me closer to God?

    If not, why would I want to be like you?

    and why should I believe anything that you say?

  30. Well I am done. As usual my experience with talking to Christians has been pretty sad. I hoped people would take time to see each others points, they didn’t. I hoped people would look at my points without trying to tell me I am wrong, just hear me. They didn’t.

    I walk way sad!

  31. I walk way sad!

    Tough questions will do that to those who live in rebellion to the truth. Jesus asked a lot of them, and many walked away too.

  32. Joe,

    Not everyone here is trying to grate you. In all honesty I wish everyone would accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior and I say that out of love.

    Kyle

  33. St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray, and do thou, oh prince of hosts, cast into hell satan and all the evil spirits who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen

  34. I have been a born again believer for some 36 years. I turn 60 in April. I pastored for some 17 years, and now run my own little business, which pays the bills and enables me to be involved in ministries of my choosing.

    Over time, I have tried many methods of Bible study, and rejected as many as well. From my personal experience, the safest method of studying the Bible (this is my opinion) is to read each of the 66 books as a seperate book. After all, that’s how they were written (and rewritten). Trying to understand the author, the times, the issues, the people, the culture of that time.

    During this process I attempt to identify and see how key ideas of a particular book intermesh. It’s called inductive Bible Study, and it requires sweat and honesty. (I do not recommended the method to anyone looking for slick Bible answers.) As I read, question, study, compare and think, I try to keep within the context of the sentence, paragraph, section, book, key ideas of the book and the overarching message of the Scriptures.

    My underlying presupposition is that if the Bible has a single divine author, (which I believe it has), who communicated through many human authors, it should be possible to identify this divine author’s thoughts in each of the 66 books. If the mesage is consistent, so ought the author’s thoughts to be consistent.

    The problem with any kind of debate that centres around the Bible is that it usually boils down to “my view verses your view.” Too much of what I read and hear from many who claim allegience to Christ, smacks of partisanship. A biased view of the Bible that will probably not stand up under close inductive scrutiny.

    I have no problem arguing from something the Scripture actually teaches, but I do insist that I have personally, and honestly examined the ground for myself.

    It disappoints me to say that in your use of the Bible, neither side of this argument is very convincing to me, simply because both groups are defending their own turf by throwing the Bible around as if it were a patchwork quilt. The lack of biblical context in the debate is glaringly absent. (I understand it is difficult to include all the context in a debate, but surely context must inform the process of coming to a reasonable conclusion about a biblical issue, and it should be apparant that context has been taken into consideration.) Hence your polarization. The GLBT is using the Bible to defend one set of beliefs, while their respondents are using it to defend another set of beliefs.

    If we are serious about this (or any other) debate, then honesty about how we reach our conclusions from the Bible about issues is the primary requisite. Without it, we merely engage in a very poor mud-slinging match that is going nowhere. There is plenty of heat, but a real scarcity of light (insight) about what the Bible does teach.

    I believe Scripture is clear on the issue of heterosexual marriage for many reasons, the primary one being that without exception, marriage is always spoken of in the context of being heterosexual in Scripture. There is not even a hint on any page of it being other than that. I am sure this statement will send many of you diving into your concordances and Bibles. I am interested to hear your response.

    Roy

  35. Roy, I hear what your saying. You say that “neither side is convincing” to you because both are using the Bible as a “patchwork quilt” Are you referring specifically to the argument about homosexual marriage? Or about homosexuality in general? And what were you needing to be convinced of?

    Maybe I missed it, but I did see anything on your part correcting how it should be done.

    And if you wouldnt mind, point out some clear examples of the patch work quilt stuff you are referring to.

    Mark has a great post on marriage, the male-female model and its implications here. Read it. Is that convincing to you?

  36. To gcmwatch.

    Thank you for your response.

    I can’t respond to all the issues right now. But perhaps I should just clarify my own position. I am unapologetically born-again, pro-heterosexual from a biblical position. I do not need convincing about the issue itself, only that we find ways to debate it effectively and with integrity. I do not believe we have anything to fear in an honest inductive debate involving any subject related to Scripture.

    It seems to me that most of the debate regarding homosexuality is akin to trench warfare. One side fires a few shots; the other side then reciprocates. (I suspect the same thing is happening between some Christians and Muslims.) They seldom, if ever stop to hear what the other person is saying. (You don’t have to agree with them, just listen, hear them out)

    The important question I believe is, will we heterosexual evangelicals ever personaly, (publicly?), face the GLBT community without acrimony, and having both agreed to take the Bible book by book, inductively, debate this issue? I am convinced the outcome will be a very different one from where we now stand. I know it would take forever.

    But why not begin with the book of Romans? Or let’s take Genesis, and see if the GLBT argument that the inhabitants of Sodom merely violated a social custom and that homosexuality itself was not the issue and see if they can publicly, or via the internet prove their view is correct by using the inductive book method. (No “Cherry picking” allowed.)

    My point is, if we do our homework properly, it will be possible to show these false arguments up for what they are: humanly imposed ideas upon the Word of God. This is not a brief skirmish, it is proving to be a long drawn out battle in which the lines are clearly drawn, but both sides will need to agree on some ground rules so the debate can move to another level. (Perhaps there will be some willing participants from both sides who will read this and respond.)

    I also believe that regardless of how strongly we feel about these issues, we must resist the temptation to resort to ad homenim arguments. They will get us nowhere. Allow people to truthfully say what they really believe, regardless of how far out it may appear; then deal with the issues.

    Remember, it is possible to be wrong in our presupposition and still be sincere. Someone genuinely seeking truth, ought to be prepared to face the weakness of their position. But, on the other hand, if someone resorts to deliberate dishonesty in order to prove their point, it goes to the heart of their credibility, and that is where the battle is won or lost. To admit deception, is tantamount to admitting that you have to lie to support your position. No argument can stand very long under such circumstances. (CS Lewis said, when someone makes a claim about something, there are only three possibilities; they lied, they are self-deceived, they are telling the truth.

    I will check the site out you mentioned. I will also respond to the other issues you raised. Just give me a few days, I start work tomorrow and have a fairly heavy schedule this first week.

    God bless and regards

    ROY

  37. Roy, thanks your words are received and acceptable as true.

    I will ask you directly if you are referring to our work here at GCM Watch or are you making general references?

    I am reserving my responses for that answer.

  38. Joe Dallas has done a great scholarly job of answering the pro-gay theology position. There is a link to his ministry, books, etc., on this main page. I have used his work to answer a minister who began visiting the church I pastor and wanted to “educate me on the misinterpretations of the passages in Romans 1, Corinthians and Genesis (Sodom and GommorahI was polite, listened intently, took time to answer, considered the textual interpretations withwhich she took issue, met again and remained firm in my understtanding of scripture. We parted on friendly terms but not able to fellowship (of course) because of the divergent understanding of the scriptures and therefore the gospel. She believed the gospel did not require repentance for same sex attracted people; I disagreed.
    I have been having these discussions for approximately 3 years with folk online. I came to the discussion when searching TD Jakes’ name and found Keith Boykin’s and Jasmine K’s joined attempted expose of alleged homophobic ministers; “Is TD Jakes Gay?”, etc., etc.,.
    I do not think the opposite side wishes for discussion and dialogue with those who hold the traditonal view of this issue. In my experience they are angry, hostile and bent on changing the church and forcing acceptance of a behavior that for the entire history of the Christian church has been interpretad as sin.
    When confronted with the fallacy of their position in a didactic and properly hermeneutic manner they invent postions and allude to gay characters in scripture that do NOT exist. I do not hold much hope for what Roy D wants to happen. I don’t think the other side wants to hear the Truth but instead what supports their contention and does not confront the behavior. Just my observation.

  39. Jimmy,

    I am making a reference in general. I do not mean to denegrate what is being done in the cause of Christ, no matter what I might personally think are its shortcomings. (And I could be shortsighted in my assesment of something). Obviously I have not had contact with your ministry at GCM Watch until now, and will not make unfair sweeping generalities about you. My observations related to some of the debate on the blog. I am sure you’ll find the same tendency elsewhere as well.

    I receive your response as a brother in Christ.

    You are correct in what you say about the GLBT attitude and agenda. I participated in an all day, high level public debate on the issue of same-sex unions and also produced a paper supporting the exclusivity of heterosexual marriage which was submitted to the South African Parliament in 2006 as part of the debate on same-sex unions. Our country passed that law just over a year ago.

    My objective is to make it quite clear (especially to the GLBT lobby), that you can’t eat your biblical cake and have it too. If they are truth seekers, they should be willing to honestly examine everything pro or against their position without fear of being overthrown. The problem as you correctly point out, is that it is difficult to find someone from their side who will candidly engage in debate at this high level of risk.

    Without sounding unkind to anyone, in Christian love, I need to stress that I do not believe from Scripture that it is possible to be a practicing gay and a practicing Christian at one and the same time. That is a contradiction in terms. (Please note my inclusion of the word “practicing.”) The person(s) might be confused about both their sexual identity as well as the Christian faith, butthis is part of the problem in general.

    God bless and regards

    ROY

  40. ROY,
    I read with much regret South Africa’s voting to approve this devastating lifestyle.

    I do want to make the distinction that our contention here is not with the political homosexual movement, but the gay christian movement. (Please note that we intentionally decap all to highlight its falsity). For we see this as a internal issue of those who would name the name of Christ, but refuse to depart from iniquity. 2 Tim 2:19. Notice it said EVERYONE. But religious homosexuals exempt themselves while accusing others of not loving them. They willfully pervert love to cover and dismiss their sin.

    Paul taught that God would judge the ungodly, but we are to judge and hold accountable those who claim to be a part of the body.

    As you noted, the gcm wants to have its biblical cake and eat it too. That is a major no-no. For anyone.

  41. I would like to propose that we call the “gay christian movement”
    an appropriate label such as “homosexual anti-Christ liars”
    or “deceived gay recruiters”
    I feel uncomfortable putting “gay” and “Christian” next to each other, feels a bit blasphemous.
    Open to any other suggestions, if anyone feels the same way.

  42. fellow christians.It is obvious that no matter what proof you show this Joe character, he has a response for everything. Too bad that they are totally without substance or proof. He says that he needs convinced that there is a God. How much more proof do people need? they already discount the centuries and centuries of actual written historical data already found as well as the archeological finds that are overwhelming. He has his motives,obviously well honed by Satan and his lustful desires, which is more proof that God has already clearly pointed out through his word. remember that Jesus told the apostles that if they are unwilling to listen,shake the dust off of their sandles and move on. They are lost,lost,lost. Their fate is sealed.

  43. I’m walking into the lion’s den with this one, but I feel that I need to. First of all, let me give you a little background on myself. I because a Christian as a teenager and for 22 years struggled with my orientation. Everything I could do, every prayer I made to God, left me in this state. I gradually grew distraught with God, wondered if he created me intentionally as someone he wanted to hate. I did not understand the grace of God and only viewed his love of me through the filter of our contemporary Christian culture.

    That said, I have since come to terms with my same-sex attractions and identify with being gay. I am also celibate, and understand that I will most likely remain this way for all of my life.

    In order to summarize my perspective on how this issue relates to my faith, I’ve come up with the following five belief positions.

    1. The best current medical understanding of sexual orientation indicates that it is largely driven by biological factors. While this makes no statement of the origination of same-sex orientation, whether it is a product of the fall or a created part of nature, it is a reality faced by millions of people worldwide and their families, and consequently must be dealt with by the Body of Christ in a loving Christ-like manner.

    2. There is nothing inherently sinful about having a predisposition toward same-sex attractions (being gay), but, as with all sexuality, scripture gives us guidelines on how to act in accordance with God’s will for our lives. And, I can find no scriptural permission for sexual activity outside of a marriage that is sanctioned and blessed by God. And, to that end, I can find no scriptural endorsement of same-sex marriages. I understand this is a complex and nuanced issue and is something that Body of Christ will need to continually seek clarification of from God’s will. Additionally, being gay encompasses a broad range of sociological and emotional traits that go beyond sexual activity, including perception of one’s own gender and how that relates to others, feeling accepted and acceptable to others, expression of gender-differential attitudes and emotions (i.e., “typical” gay behavior traits), and understanding the special requirements on a person’s life regarding the call to holiness.

    3. We all have sinned and there are areas of our lives that continue to separate us from the love of God. Sexual sins are, in no way, any worse or better than non-sexual sins. Language and attitudes in the Church have contributed to the assumption that people who have same-sex attractions are enemies of God, ineligible for salvation, willfully destructive to God’s Kingdom, and a danger to society. Broad statements like this drive people from the Church and promote a culture of hostility between the Church and the gay community. And, it is up to God’s people to see all people the way that God sees them, regardless of their orientation or hostility.

    4. While it is not outside God’s ability to change one’s orientation, doing so would require miraculous intervention. Just as many Godly people remain blind, disabled, or in some way impaired for their entire lives, we understand that God’s strength is perfected in our weakness, and individual and corporate acceptance of a person’s biology provides the emotional and spiritual healing needed for them to grow in God’s love as a believer. This does not mean condoning practice, but rather, accepting their state as an individual with same-sex attractions.

    5. Evidence of spiritual growth and maturity is the best gauge of a person’s health and participation in the Kingdom. We must not do anything that interferes with God’s calling, work, and redemptive involvement in a person’s life. As followers of Christ, we are called to first, love God with our whole hearts, souls, minds, and strength. And, secondly, to love our neighbor as we would love ourselves. It is only from accepting God’s love in our lives and ultimately from this overflow, can we love ourselves like God loves us. And, ultimately, love others as we love ourselves. From this love, our spiritual growth and willingness to do God’s will becomes a natural and direct consequence. Anything else leads to a works-based perspective and interferes with our spiritual growth.

    You can feel free to dispute these, criticize me, and threaten me with bodily harm, as some have. I serve the risen Christ and am certain of my salvation. It is not based on works, lest anyone can boast, but on the redemptive blood of Christ Jesus.

    Peace and grace,
    Scott

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