NC COGIC hosts gay christian theologian

But you won’t believe what happened the next day! The Upper Room Church of God in Christ located in Raleigh, gets an A+ and my high commendation for this.

On January 13, the church’s outspoken pastor, Dr. Patrick Wooden  invited Dr. Brett Webb-Mitchell, an  openly gay theologian to address his “Ministers in Training” class. Webb-Mitchell was to talk on his book “On becoming a gay parent”.  But when he veered off into a scriptural debate with the ministers, he was soundly challenged on his beliefs.  Webb-Mitchell descibed the exchange as a “wonderful, passionate dicussion about scripture”. He even said the pastor and host church were polite to him. Upon the meeting’s conclusion, everything was fine with the pastor providing Dr. Mitchell with personal escorts to his car. Mitchell even expressed a desire to return to the church for more “dialogue”.

Anatomy of a liar 

Then the very next day Webb-Mitchell had a change of mind. No one knows why but on his blog, the assistant professor at Duke Divinity School  launched a shameless, hate-filled character assassination on both the pastor and the ministers!  His account of the meeting was, to say the least, completely dishonest and unprofessional. And over the top vindictive. Its ironic that Mitchell is currently promoting his book on how to be a gay parent. Congratulations, Dr. Mitchell now your kids have a great example of what it means to be a unscrupulous liar.

Pastor Wooden responded to Mitchell’s liefest here.
revplwooden.jpg
Read Mitchell’s fabricated account of the meeting where he portrays himself as a “lion in a room full of daniels”.

Thankfully, the church had the entire exchange on tape so it was able to present the facts after the PCUSA minister publicly excoriated them without a cause. To date, Mitchell has issued no apology nor recanted his bizarre attack on the church.

Reading about this story reminded me of what happened to me in 2006 when Gareth Fenley, a gay christian activist came to the DVD screening of  “I Do Exist”, which we hosted in Atlanta. After our exemplary hospitality, the woman went and wrote a fabricated account of the meeting in a local gay newspaper. Like Pastor Wooden, I was forced to set the record straight. She later recanted (somewhat) and blamed the paper, saying they changed her words.

Do you think Pastor Wooden should have invited Brett Webb-Mitchell to his church or was it a good thing in that it exposed Mitchell’s true character? My extensive experience dealing with homosexual activists —even the “christian” ones– lets me know that Webb-Mitchell’s behavior and smear of the church was all too typical.

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41 thoughts on “NC COGIC hosts gay christian theologian

  1. I think all things worked together for good…no, I wouldn’t have let an openly gay person come speak to my ministers in training, but in God’s soveriengty, more “seed” was planted in the gay man so perhaps somewhere in his life, he may come into repentance, and like B.Wheeler said, his true agenda was made manifest. Homosexuals truly detest anything and anyone that comes against their lifestyle, and that perverse spirit will always get nasty and spew out lies…why, because they are living a lie and operating under the influence of the father of lies…satan (not worthy of capitilizing)

  2. Wow, I just listened to the tape of the q and a. It was astonishing to hear Mitchell stumble over his own lies and refuse to be clear about statements.

    The church was more than cordial to him and let him give long speech segments. But when they wanted to talk, he OVERTALKED them or refused to answer.

    No integrity. None. Arrogant and condescending.

    This should be classic text book training on dealing with the gay christian movement.

  3. One of the problems I see in the church is the slight of hand that churches give to former homosexuals over openly gay activist. Had this minister allowed the ex gay and the gay to speak maybe this would have been balanced, but no he choose a gay activist in a chirstian robe. What did he expect to get?

    This story is being replicated throughout the nation a christian minsiter seeks to reach out and finds himself with pie on his face.When will the church understand that the gay church is an activist church whose mission isnot saving souls but advancing gay acceptance.

    The church needs to invite to speak in there places of worship those who adhere to the scriptures warning in Mark 14:38 “To watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak.

    Today these would be ex gays and those seeking to overcome homosexual temptations not the ones who have embrace it as an idenity.Stop ignoring the ex gays for the gay activist and the church will never have this problem.

    Only in a world maked by sin will you find rewards and speaking engagments for those rejecting scripture while those of us who fight daily against sin are ignored.

    http://groups.myspace.com/exodusfreedom

  4. God is great!
    Dr. Brett Webb-Mitchell’s rhetoric is the same nonsense that I have been hearing for years from gay apologists. The Gen 19 twisting, the re-definition of ‘family, the belief that the scripture is not ‘culturally relevant’ today All foolishness, all heresy. There is no explaining away the simple truth of the scripture.
    His arrogant condescension, pitying sarcasm, and overall tone are all symptomatic of the spirit that rules these people.
    We have to, though offended and disgusted, continue to pray for them.

  5. one of the things I learned in attending a Christian Highschool (Dominion Christian), for though we studied differing philosophies in order to know what opponents of the faith believed & why they believed it (as well as having people of differing faiths come in so we could ask questions/hear out 1st hand what their worldviews were), WE NEVER NEGLECTED THE IMPORTANCE OF GOING BACK TO WHAT THE WORD OF GOD SAID ON ANY GIVEN ISSUE, as that was the FINAL STANDARD……..(Psalm 1, Psalm 19)…..

    & even though we learned many things/truths from those who weren’t saved (just as it is with MANY of those in secular practices—many of which are NOT saved—- & invlolved in things the Word does not EXPLICITLY adress, such as medicine, zoology, astronomy, biology, etc), the principles of KEEPING CHRIST FIRST STILL GUIDED US.

  6. Homosexuals truly detest anything and anyone that comes against their lifestyle, and that perverse spirit will always get nasty and spew out lies…why, because they are living a lie and operating under the influence of the father of lies…satan (not worthy of capitilizing)

    I’ll have to let Satan know that he’s doing a crap job with me, then. I mean, he let me donate money to charity the other day! And tell a group of anti-gay rights activists that they have every right to picket for whatever they want!

    Really, I don’t know why everyone gets so upset about Satan if that’s the worst he can do.

    GCMW: lllfrwriting your humor is lost here. Is there anything serious you wanted to say?

  7. That was a somewhat more interesting way of saying ‘Godlysoldier1, I am living proof of the fact that you’re wrong’.

    Is that serious enough?

  8. Let’s say you are being serious now.
    How exactly are you proof?
    Do you have biblical evidence that homosexuality is right and good?
    “You” as proof can only be qualified in your own eyes. We need proof that can be substaniated in God’s Word.

  9. In Mr. Soldier’s own words:

    Homosexuals truly detest anything and anyone that comes against their lifestyle, and that perverse spirit will always get nasty and spew out lies…why, because they are living a lie and operating under the influence of the father of lies…satan (not worthy of capitilizing)

    Obviously I can say nothing to the latter point – if you honestly believe that the Bible is true, there’s little I can do to convince you otherwise – but I’m certainly proof that homosexuals don’t automatically detest’anything that goes against our ‘lifestyle’.

    It’s one thing to say that homosexuality is wrong; that’s your opinion, fair enough. It’s enough to claim that an entire group of people share a single trait (in this case, ‘getting nasty and spewing out lies’), a statement that should be easy for anyone to investigate and discover false.

  10. llfrmwrtng, the fact that you claim to be a homosexual, according to the bible, (which I do believe is true) constitutes a “lie” everytime you open your mouth to profess and defend your lifestyle. Rom 1:24-28. I’m not attacking any person, but the “spirit” that is operating in and through them. This particular blogs pertains to homosexuals claiming to be christians and doing Gods work. Satan does transform himself as an angel of light, and “works” does not constitute nor validify one being a christian. The road to hell is paved with many good intentions. My heart is as Gods, that all would come into the knowledge of truth and be saved from hells fire, and the bible as someone stated earlier, is the final authority that we, as christians, are to live according to…as GCMW stated, your “proof” is only of “your” opinion in your own eyes based upon deception that you are currently under. Our proof is in the INFALLIBLE WORD OF GOD. I pray that one day God would allow the scales too fall from your eyes, the dullness from your hearing, repent and turn from your ungodly lifestyle, come into the knowledge of the Truth, the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth, which is Jesus, and live a life according the God’s standards as stated in His glorious testament, THE BIBLE.

  11. If it’s up to God to ‘allow the scales to fall from my eyes’, doesn’t that imply that he’s the one deceiving me?

  12. Only in the sense that he’s turned you over to a “reprobate mind” because “you” chose to worship the creature rather than the creator with your lifestyle. The bible says the heart of man is deceitful, above all desperately wicked, who can know if but God. In your heart “you” are choosing the lifestyle you live which is against the word of God…God is not deceiving you, “your heart” and the lust of “your own flesh” is deceiving you. Should by chance any of this word penetrate your heart and you truly hear God speaking to you through his word and then you truly REPENT and turn from your sinful lifestyle, then God will grant you repentance…just know that in the day that you hear is voice, harden not your heart, God will not always strive with men. I pray it’s not too late for you.

  13. That was all a bit incoherent, but unfortunately it probably is ‘too late’ for me. If God turns out to be real, I’ll have to hope he cares more about how a person lives than what sex they’re attracted to.

    Of course, based on blogs like this God seems to care a hell of a lot more about the latter than the former, which has always struck me as a bit screwed up.

  14. Wow, what a saga! I am so glad that had that recorded. The gay movement ought to be really irritated at frauds like Webb for being such hypocritical liars . . . unless, of course, that is part of their agenda.

  15. lifelesson, are you surprised that godlysoldier is not agreeing with you? It would be the same for me if I went to a gay christian blog/forum. I did actually. They would not even entertain the possibility of my beliefs. And were quite hostile.

    Im trying to understand why you feel the need to poke fun at our beliefs. Reading your responses it “sounds” like you are agnostic or atheist. Are you?

    This is nothing personal to you, but dont expect me to want to change what God has said to make you happy.

    Christ died to make us free, happiness follows acceptance of that freedom. As long as you are alive, its never too late to repent and give your life to Christ.

  16. I Cor 1:18 KJV, For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God….

  17. gcmwatch:

    Of course I’m not surprised, but I was expecting something more than ‘because the Bible says so’. This kind of belief isn’t just something people keep to themselves, it’s something that actually affects a lot of people all over the world. I was hoping there was more behind it than just blind faith in what’s written in a book.

    You’re saying that I should ‘repent’ for my sins, and should put myself through a lot of hardship and difficulty to (somehow) try to stop myself from being gay. So far, nobody has ever given me any sort of good reason to why I should do that. And yes, I’m an atheist, so you can see why quoting the Bible is unlikely to convince me.

  18. So then lifelessons, we should burn ALL books in the world which teach us great lessons in life. I would think that you too at some point in your life have followed the teachings of somebody’s book…and believed what you read. Why should Christians be any different with the Bible? Blindly faith? To an extent, yes. As Job said, though he slay me, yet will I trust him. Not in the book, but the the Lord of the Book. I trust him completely. I call that being secure and confident in what (and who) I believe.

    I thought that was a desirable human trait. Aren’t you secure and confident in your sexuality? If not, why do you remain gay?

    If you went to a doctor to diagnose your condition, would you want him to take his best guess or give you a response based on what training from medical books had taught him?

    If you were playing football and the coach told you to go by the playbook, would you get on the field and do what you wanted despite what the playbook said?

    Why should we learn, depend on and trust the Bible only to give you (or anyone else) something different when you question us… about what we believe?

    If you cannot be convinced to repent of your sins ( I didnt say stop being gay) from the scriptures Im not sure the conversation ON THIS TOPIC can go anywhere productive. That’s sad.

    I have discussed all the major issues of life with a myriad of people. One of the most invigorating conversations I have had in my life was with an atheist. I didnt tell him anything different than I have said here. But I respected his choice to believe as he did and I honored his personhood, as I do yours. And he was a really nice guy.

    That in no way means I should scuttle my beliefs in our discussions.

  19. Burn books? Where did you get that from? I think burning a book (any book) is terrible.

    I thought that was a desirable human trait. Aren’t you secure and confident in your sexuality? If not, why do you remain gay?

    The fact that I’m gay is something that I can’t possibly refute. The evidence: I have never had any sort of romantic or physical attraction to a woman. I’ve only had those feelings for men ‘Faith’, as religious people describe it, doesn’t apply to this situation.

    If you went to a doctor to diagnose your condition, would you want him to take his best guess or give you a response based on what training from medical books had taught him?

    If you were playing football and the coach told you to go by the playbook, would you get on the field and do what you wanted despite what the playbook said?

    And would you read the playbook carefully and criticize what you disagreed with or thought was wrong? I certainly hope you would, rather than following every precept in it simply because it’s in the book and you trust it. It would be madness to pick up a copy of ‘Chicken Soup for the Soul’ from a library and immediately hold everything in it absolutely true, wouldn’t it? To non-believers, that’s exactly what Christians do with the Bible.

    On any subject, regardless of how much my opinion was influenced by something I read, I ultimately made up my own mind. I read ‘The God Delusion’, liked it, and eventually became an atheist because of it, but I disagree with some of what Dawkins says and find his arguments to be fairly childish at times. I greatly enjoyed the moral subtext in ‘Life of Pi’, even though much of it was based on religiou beliefs that I don’t share with the author. There is a big, big difference between gaining insight or knowlege about life from a book and blindly believe everything that that book says.

    But I’m curious about something, and this is something that I’ve never gotten around to asking a religious person before. Is your dislike of homosexuality only because of what the Bible says? In other words, if the Bible said ‘Homosexuality is perfectly moral and should be accepted by Christians’ would you find homosexuality perfectly agreeable? Or do you have your own reasons, independent of the Bible, for disliking or disagreeing with homosexuality?

  20. This reply is strickly according to God’s inspired written
    word; “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woma, both of them have committed an abomination:
    they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.” Lev.20:13, Old Testament. “Who changed
    the truth of God into a lie, and worsgipped and served
    the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile effections: for even their women did change the natural
    use into that which is against nature. And likewise also
    the men, leaving the natural use of woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.” Rom. 1:25-27, New testament. These two scriptures clearly shows how God is so against sodomy. Sodomy means; sexual intercourse with a member of the same
    sex or with an animal. Homosexuality; Of, relating to, or
    marked by sexual interest in the same sex as oneself. Being a homosexual is not what God intended anyone to be so one cannot be born as a homosexual, but by choice. Yes, God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son (Jesus) according to John 3:16, but one must realize that God hate all doers of iniquity according to Psalm 5:5. We Christians must remember that we have no business putting God in a box because God is omnipotent, He can love an hate at the same time just like He can be everywhere at the same time. And to answer your question regarding whether Pastor Wooden should of invited Dr. Webb-Mitchell to address his “Ministers in Training” class, at first I thought no, but after listening to the address I think it was a great idea provided all present are adults
    and no children. But, I don’t think Pastor Wooden should have to pay Dr. Webb-Mitchell if this was a forum for debate. If Dr. Webb-Mitchell was such a Christian, first he would not be gay and second he would not find a need to get pay for something like this
    because as Christians, we should have jobs or if a full time Pastor supported be the church for his living and trust in God to take care of our daily needs. “Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.” Matt.6:33 & again in Luke 12:31. While I was listening, I was hearing a great level of maturity on the part of Pastor Wooden and his class, but a quite poor representation on Dr. Webb-Mitchell’s behavior. I’m not trying to assassinate his character, but he was acting far to overbearing such as interrupting others when it was their turn to talk and he was evading every question instead of just answering them. This is a classic example of someone not matter what the truth is continues to defend his/her wrongs. I will be reading Dr. Webb-mitchell’s response comments.

  21. I respect Pastor Wooden and he’s always stood against the abomination of homosexuality. However he should have never extended the invite. Given 1 Corinthians 5, there should be zero association unless and until Mitchell turns from his evil.

    GCMW: IC youre right on that. Did he do this for bloodsport training for his ministers? And why did he agree to PAY the man? That is very confusing. We asked for a clarification as to why the invite was extended in the first place, but he hasnt responded. If someone else would like to ask the number is 919-829-6160 ext 6184.

  22. Lifelessons,

    you disagree with the biblical Christian stance on refuting homosexuality. You refuse to believe what this book (the bible) teaches, and I am saddened that you feel that way. Not in reference to the homosexuality, but toward the salvation in Christ and all that the book points toward to-God himself. The truth is we are sinful, unable (and unwilling) creatures in the sight of God. Yet in spite of all this He calls us out of our darkness into His marvelous light. You seek the pleasure of this world (because it seems right), but fail to realize what could possibly be on the other side. There is more to life than walking in this world. One day we will all see that. Now if God truly is what His word proclaims him to be (which I fully believe) then you ought to really give that some serious thinking, because more than your homosexuality is at stake.

    As far as your question directed towrds GCM: if the Bible said ‘Homosexuality is perfectly moral and should be accepted by Christians’ would you find homosexuality perfectly agreeable? Or do you have your own reasons, independent of the Bible, for disliking or disagreeing with homosexuality?

    It’s an unfair question because you cannot change what is. My rebuttal to you is: If the bible would have stated that it is ok would you then become a Christian? I don’t think you would choose to because you would still fail to see the sin of this world and the sacrifice of GOD himself.

  23. It’s an unfair question because you cannot change what is. My rebuttal to you is: If the bible would have stated that it is ok would you then become a Christian? I don’t think you would choose to because you would still fail to see the sin of this world and the sacrifice of GOD himself.

    Me being an atheist has nothing to do with what the Bible says about homosexuality. If I honestly thought that the Bible was true (in other words, if someone gave me some convincing evidence that it really is more than a collection of old books), what I think about its message would be irrelevant. I would be forced to concede that it’s true based on the evidence.

    Can you really not fathom any sort of response other than ‘I can’t answer that’? It shouldn’t be too difficult to ask yourself ‘Do I disagree with homosexuality for any reason other than ‘The Bible tells me to? You must have some sort of opinion on it independent of the Bible. I find it impossible to believe that your opinion could be so wrapped up in one single source that you honestly can’t separate what you think from it at all.

    GCMW: llfw, is your hangup whether or not we have independent opinion from the Bible or that no one has convinced you? And are you saying that if we gave you independent opinion of homosexuality apart from the Bible, it would convince you to change your lifestyle? If that’s not you point, what is? The merry go round is becoming a bit boring.

  24. GCMW you mentioned:

    IC youre right on that. Did he do this for bloodsport training for his ministers? And why did he agree to PAY the man? That is very confusing. We asked for a clarification as to why the invite was extended in the first place, but he hasnt responded. …

    I find what he did to be unusual and an error. I’m going to look at it as a one time mistake I hope he’s learned not to make again.

    That was a big 2 John 1:9-11 slip, but it’s a slip many of us have made at one time or another and had to learn from.

    If the goal is to train students on the tactics used by someone like Mitchell, I’m sure there is plenty of video footage available of Mitchell, that could have been used as a class object lesson.

  25. My point is that whenever I ask a religious person why they think homosexuality is wrong, the only answer they ever give is ‘because my holy book says so’.

    I’m just wondering if that’s actually all there is to it, or if you have some other reason as well. I didn’t think it was that difficult a question to answer.

  26. Several people gave you more than a sufficient (both bible based and nonscriptural) answers to your question(s). You just didnt like or didnt agree with it. I reread the responses and I didnt see anyone here telling you [quote] because my holy book says so [unquote]. Im sorry other “religious” people can’t give you more when you ask them, but you may be be sterotyping us. In fact, the answers were quite comprehensive. Is there something more youre expecting?

  27. Every answer so far pertained completely to the Bible. I’m not trying to be antagonistc here, I’m just wondering if you’ve got any opinions on this that aren’t based on what the Bible says.

    If I say ‘Why do you disagree with homosexuality?’ and someone replies with ‘Because [Bible Quote]’, they may as well just be saying ‘because the Bible says so’. It would be like you asking me why I’m an atheist and me replying with ‘Because Richard Dawkins said I should be in The God Delusion‘. Would you be satisifed with that answer?

  28. lifelessons,
    The reason that I hang on every word of the Bible is because I believe it the truth of God. You take the name lifelessons, but won’t take the ultimate life lesson from the bible. It is more than old stories. Science has come into agreement with what is taught in the bible. For instance, the Bible states that the earth is round and hangs in the void. Also, the Jews were told to wash their hands in running water- hmm, isn’t that what science tells us today-but wasn’t practiced till 19th century? For the Christian the Bible is our very life-source. We are nothing apart from the teachings of our God and King. A quote from us outside of the Bible isn’t going to ease your eagerness to change our thoughts. Why is that? Because you refuse to accept the way we believe as being viable. I’ll end my conversation with you with this: If you are right and God doesn’t exist, then nothing matters in the end. You can’t take back, you can’t regret, you’re dead and gone, a vapor no more. However, if the God of the Bible truly is who He says He is, then your regrets (not to mention the pain of the lake of fire) will haunt you for eternity while others share in an unimaginable joy. We both can’t be right, either you are or I am. I urge you to really look into what we speak. Read Dawkins, but also read RC Sproul, Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spurgeon, John MacArthur, John Piper. You seem to be a thinker, why not take ALL of the information in before you make an ultimate decision.

  29. b wheeler.

    I will be very blunt with you.

    Go somewhere else if you want to criticize the fact that we use the BIBLE here.

    Goodbye.

    GCMW

  30. Leaving the bible out of it. If homosexuality is something you are born with, and having affection for the same sex is just the way you are. Then I have a simple analagy, I shouldn’t be able to look at you and tell whether you llike vanilla over chocolate ice cream. That’s your preference, but how come you look at 95% of gay men and see that they are GAY? The way they talk, walk, dress, and even their countenance betrays some of them. Same with women, what makes them want to walk, talk and dress like a man. If it’s your preference I shouldn’t be able to tell by looking at you. It’s a SPIRIT, one that at sometime in your life you were exposed to it and it became a part of your life.

    Same goes for the man who only has affections for little boys. A true pedophile can get aroused by being shown pictures of little boys. That’s not his choice, it’s the way he was born. If the same rights that are attributed to homosexuals and lesbians to be free to love whom the are genetically disposed to love, why can’t the pedophile have the same rights?

    After all his sexual urge for little boys is as real to him as your urges for another man. Let’s quite putting them in jail and let them live their lives and have their right to live and love.

    It’s all Spirtual Wckeness. One that can only be delivered by the power of God.

    And to anyone who denies the reality of God. I know a woman that had a brain tumor in a dangerous part of her brain, after a prayer meeting the next day she went to the hospital for her pre op and when they did a new scan her tumor was gone and that was 20 years ago. Four years ago, I know a woman who had breast cancer that had spread to both breasts, after the church prayed, she went back to the Dr and all traces of cancer was gone.

    A relative of mine was sick and the Drs did an exploratory surgery and found cancer had spread throughout her body, they wouldn’t even sew her up, they called her family and gave her a week. Those Saints of God prayed for that woman in the Hospital and God healed her right in front of the Dr.s and she lived to be 92 years.

    I know a lot of these manifestations of God’s healing but you go ahead and believe there is not God. I’m taking my chances with the one who can deliver.

  31. Elder Foster~

    Yet another top notch job…and to the point…NO Pastor Wooden shouldn’t have let this guy come in…I think I understand that he wanted to gain some witnessing points and reconfirm what he’s been teaching by hearing a gay advocate first hand…but there are plenty better ways to do that…Just an association with the godly are an approval of an ungodly lifestyle (at least in the supposed Dr’s mind)

    To this “lifelessonsfromwriting”. ..Why are we moral beings? I mean according to your anti-Christ interpretation of life why should we be restrained from doing ANYTHING and EVERYTHING that comes into our minds?…Why is there a restraint for any human action? Is there a book on everything that we can or cannot do? Why suppress the pedophile or axe murderer from doing what they want to do? Why shouldn’t the rapist be restrained from even your family members? I mean everything is relative…right???

    You, like most anti-Christ advocates, think that atheism has allowed you to be a “free thinker” but your thoughts are bound…bound because you have no objectivity for truth and certainly no standard except for the standard of your own subjective experience or life interpretive which is subject to change and certainly provides no guidance outside of your experience.

    The fact is that homosexuality is not only against God who has revealed such in his word but also against nature itself. The world preserves itself through gender diverse procreation, not SAME GENDER…Species could not survive without copulation between males and females of their types. This is the first observation that should speak to you. Natural, male-female sexual relationships are a reasonable benefit to survival of any species. Cross-gender copulation is essential for survival…This is called a teleological (design) observation…Look at how every species has been designed to procreate. Certainly not by homosexual methods. In fact homosexual methods throughout nature are short lived, and do not add ANYTHING essential to the species observed in engaging in such behavior.

    Then the WORD OF GOD goes on to explain this to us in greater detail, outlining the benefits and consequences of obeying and disobeying HIS word. In short, MORE than just the Bible tells us so…God himself tells us so in ways that we can all observe even if the Bible were taken away from us.

    The argument against homosexuality is more reasonable and fluent on every level than the argument for homosexuality. The argument has nothing to do with the homosexual’s ability to amass materialism which is the confirmation of the humanist, but it has everything to do with the contribution to society, benefits to humanity and ultimately the approval of God.

    You need to go to my site if you want to talk further about your anti-Christ advocacy. ~

    http://bethelburnett.blogspot.com/2008/02/legacy-of-atheisms-queen.html

    Atheism, both heterosexual and homosexual has added NOTHING to society in general and is not only a highly unreasonable proposition, but an extreme leap of faith.

    I’ll leave you with the same words that I left Mr. Brett-Mitchell with:

    “The foolishness of Mel White, John Elliott and yourself are beyond belief. Both he and you know that “ARESENOKOITAI” found in 1 Cor.6:9 means male sexual union with males. You know Paul joined “Arseno”-{lying with} and “koitai”-{another man} to reexpress the word of God found in Lev. 18:22 and 20:13. These words to indicate exactly that God has condemned your SIN of homosexuality.

    You well know that if Paul was talking about a pedophile he would have used the term “paiderastis”…but yet you choose to cover your sins and use God to do so…then LIE on godly people…

    One thing is for sure hell won’t be your home because of homosexuality…Hell will be your home because of unbelief and the defiled heart that you value and hold on to.

    Repent and DO YOUR FIRST WORKS OVER AGAIN.

    Great Job Elder Foster

  32. To this “lifelessonsfromwriting”. ..Why are we moral beings? I mean according to your anti-Christ interpretation of life why should we be restrained from doing ANYTHING and EVERYTHING that comes into our minds?…Why is there a restraint for any human action? Is there a book on everything that we can or cannot do? Why suppress the pedophile or axe murderer from doing what they want to do? Why shouldn’t the rapist be restrained from even your family members? I mean everything is relative…right???

    You, like most anti-Christ advocates, think that atheism has allowed you to be a “free thinker” but your thoughts are bound…bound because you have no objectivity for truth and certainly no standard except for the standard of your own subjective experience or life interpretive which is subject to change and certainly provides no guidance outside of your experience.

    *groan*

    Bad science, bad reasoning, and, to top it all off, the inevitable threat of hell.

    I’m not afraid of burning in your God’s imaginary torture chamber for eternity. The threats aren’t going to ‘scare me straight’ or into belief, and your supposedly ‘secular’ reasoning is laughable.

    Your words mean nothing without evidence to back them up (and not just tired teleological arguments). When you can prove that your god exists and that the Bible is his word, I’ll listen, but until then I’m not interested in joining your cult.

  33. lifelessonsfromwriting~

    So what type of evidence will you accept? What type of proof would a reasonable person such as you accept?

    Philosophical arguments, physical evidences, archaelogical evidences…what? I mean persons of reason would shurely have some point that would at least peak their interest. Let me know, I’m curious.

    Please be specific.

  34. lifelessons,
    Ive grown exceptionally weary of your refusal to dialogue without going in circles of nonsense.
    If youre not interested (as you said) let me suggest two things:
    1. dont post here again, and therefore no one will have to respond.
    2. Dont post here again.

    Your choice,

  35. Amen Elder Jimmy and Elder Foster~

    Most if not all atheists I’ve encountered are unrational in their thinking, and highly unreasonable. They think Christians are that way, but when presented with facts they always retreat into their irrational arguments and presuppositions. They love to present fictictious statements as if they are factual.

    I was dealing with another guy on an atheist web-site, he was sating all kinds of things about the bible as it it were fact…When I presented him the evidence against his argument it took 2 more posts before he finally conceeded.

    People such as this are given to fantasy, fairy tales and mentally live in “la-la land” but that’s part of their world view, that’s the ONLY place mentally they can reconcile their blindness and refusal to believe what is obvious and plainly set before them.

    This person is clearly no different.

    God Bless.

  36. Agreed Pastor Burnett.
    LL had more than his/her fair share of opportunity to respond coherently and acknowledge when he was wrong. Engaging him any further was pointless and a waste of space on this blog.

    Its like a dog chasing his tail.

  37. Although LifeLessons didn’t have much options for posting any further replies, I wonder why he didn’t rebuff the “procreation” being a natural phenomena since the beginning of time? How did he arrive on the planet and does the buck stop here with homosexuals not willing to reproduce? Maybe some want to be parents but don’t want to go the obvious channels to procreate? How does that make any logical sense? Furthermore to pick and chose what part of a book is logical or not is like trying to follow a recipe substitutions you feel are ok. If you’re baking a cake it’ll flop(baking soda is not the same as baking powder), if you’re fixing a car it won’t run the way it’s supposed to, if it’s constructing something and do your own thing (not according to the specifications of the manual) then don’t be suprized if something goes wrong and it inevitably will. The Bible is our manual or textbook if you will, on how to life a life of joy and peace. Those to obey and follow what is in it are successful, happy, and blessed . We can learn from the mistakes of those who have gone on before and enjoy the salvation and warning not to repeat them which saves us in the long run. You gotta know your history! And the gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ another bonus. Try reading it then make a judgement call. Here’s a couple of scriptures for reference: Joshua 1:8 (MSG) “And don’t for a minute let this book of Revelation be out of mind. ponder and meditate on it day and night, making sure you practice everything written in it. Then you’ll get to where your going;then you’ll succeed”.

    John 1:1

    Luke 11:28

    Revelation 1:2-3

    Unlike Chicken Soup for the Soul, the good thing is that no matter what you pick or choose out of the bible you can’t go wrong when you obey God’s word.

  38. I’ve watched all the back & forth; & all the round’n round…..I have a simple solution for LLFW….& any other non believer……momma use to tell me….just whole heartedly, try God for urself. I had so many questions, doubts & gray area’s; about who God was, growing up.

    I once asked my mom…what’s up with all this Jesus…Jesus…God…God stuff? Church all thru the week; twice on sunday…sisters from the church coming over, callin the house all the time…..pray’n & holler’n on the phone, & in person…..what is up with all this!???? She’d say: he’s worth of it all; & more.

    Then She simply told me: Theres nothing like experience…..try God for urself…..talk to him, just like I’m talk’n to u….ask him to make himself “real” to you……..when I did that…& after some “growth time” had passed……those scales that the brother was speaking of….slowly fell off my blinded eyes; and a new “unseen & mis-understood world had opened up to me! Every since then I’ve been living & loving this GREAT relationship w/God.

    Try him…You’ll love him!

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