10 questions on being "a Christian"

I was intrigued by a post on Joe Brummer’s website. Brummer, an infrequent visitor to this site is a self described formerly Christian, currently gay atheist. In the post entitled “After years of being a Christian…”, I was struck not so much by Brummer’s alleged years of being a Christian, but rather by the fact that he probably was never a Christian based on what the Bible says. This isnt a smear of his most likely honest beliefs, but a teaching moment to help people see that many people do a lot of things thinking that makes them a Christian, but the truth is that they have never passed through the “Door” and thus have never experienced what true relationship with Christ is all about.

This isn’t a swipe at Catholics because I have heard the same type of beliefs from different corridors of denominations. We need to know what is required —and what is not required— to be a Christian. I do have some problems with the contemporary definition of Christian and perhaps that ill conceived definition is why so many are deceived about their so-called Christian lives. Subsequently, Brummer seems to be lamenting something that actually never occured. You see, faulty understanding produces faulty living. And his reflections on what being a Christian is, truly reflects this deficiency.

Based on his exact quotes, I formulated 10 questions. See if you can give a biblical answer to them. Maybe if Joe sees the truth —and the difference— he will become a Christian for real.

1. Does being raised in a certain religion make you a Christian? 
JB: “I was raised a Catholic.”

2. Does going to a religious school make you a Christian? 
JB: “As a child, I went to Catholic schools and church on Sundays.”

3. Does receiving sacraments make you a Christian? 
JB: “I was baptized, received communion, and was confirmed choosing the confirmation name, “Christopher.””

4. Does the desire to be a minister make you a Christian? 
JB: “For a short while as a kid, I truly believed I would grow up to be a Priest.”

5. Does “playing church” make you a Christian? 
JB: “I would hold “mass” in my basement playroom and pretend I was preparing Eucharist.”

6. Does singing in the church choir and doing weekly readings make you a Christian?  
JB: “I sang in the church choir fronted by Sister Mary and did the readings at first Friday Mass.”

7. Does studying scripture and biblical history make you a Christian? 
JB: “As I continued in my schooling, I studied scripture and biblical history.”

8. Does participation in morality and catechism classes make you a Christian? 
JB: “I had morality classes and was taught catechism.”

9. Does understanding sin, confession and hell make you a Christian? 
JB: “I understood sin, confession, and even hell.”

10. Does talking to Jesus or believing that he loves you make you a Christian? 
JB: “At night, as I lay in bed, I would talk to Jesus and I truly believed he was listening and that he loved me.”

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48 thoughts on “10 questions on being "a Christian"

  1. I will be interested in reading the replies to this. I am curious why you didn’t address the actual topic of my article? It would expand the thought when we ask if this is a Christian Nation and what that means.

    EIther way, I am not really an infrequent visitor. I have this site on my RSS Feed Reader. I see most of your writing, even if I don’t read it completely.

    Anyway, I will let your “Christian” readers answer the questions.

  2. What is most sad JUDGING by his comment above – Joe thinks there are different answers to these questions.

    Hint: all answers have two letters :
    N and O

  3. Well no, Mark, I do not think think there are different answers, I know there are different answers. I also understand that you believe there is only one set of answers, but I know that others believe differently. That also helps to explain the hundreds of denominations of Christians who all think it requires something diffrerent to be a Christian.

    I have also studied different Christian beliefs. I am well aware some Christians believe you need to be born again, some believe you need to baptized, others believe you need both. There actually are more answers to the questions than I would presume most people know.

    But the bottom line is that I am no longer a Christian and can assure you with 100% certainty I will never be a Christian again. At best, I could explore the idea their is an impersonal creator, but not a personal god.

  4. Yes, there is a serious lack of understanding of what it means to be a Christian. Not in the sense of accomplishment or of pride, but in the biblical sense of what the word means.

  5. There are people who have “walked with Jesus”, but never actually entered the “Door”. There are people who are called “disciples of Jesus” who were never saved.

    John 6:60-71 (New American Standard Bible)

    60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?”

    61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, “Does this cause you to stumble?

    62 “What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?

    63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

    64 “But there are some of you who do not believe ” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.

    65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

    66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.

    67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?”

    68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have )words of eternal life.

    69 “We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.”

    70 Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?”

    71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.

    Neither those who walked away or Judas Iscariot were ever saved. Those who walked away were walking with Christ for a while, but the more they learned, the more they realized it was not what they wanted it to be. They were never called by the Father to the Son. Judas was selected by Christ, but never called by the Father to repentance to the Son. Never saved. Judas fulfilled his role in scripture.

    Same with Joe as those who heard some truth and refused it, never saved. If Joe was really called to repentance, even the bits of truth he heard would have helped him find the whole truth. But Joe has gone for the pleasures of the flesh instead.

    (Pastor Foster, if the statement below is not allowed, feel free to remove all that is below including this sentence:)
    I do want to note if allowed, that Roman Catholicism is apostate doctrine. If anyone having been trained in Roman Catholicism wants to know the truth, they can simply watch the well prepared videos I have in a post titled: Roman Catholicism Versus The Bible. As Always, Bible Wins! (*Updated*)

  6. It was C. S. Lewis who said of “Atheists” they express their rage against God although in their view he does not exist . In truth Joe Brummer is no exception that is why he has this blog on his rss feed and why he comments frequently on reparative therapy on other blogs.

    In many ways the gay athiest is obssesed with ex gays and God because if change is possible it proves that they have missed something. The very existence of an “ex gay” person is stark contrast to conventinal reasoning. If ex hays exist and they attest that change to the the direction of a higher power then religion and theology must be taken seriously and this is what the athiest fears.

    http://www.freedomispossible.org/

  7. Would someone care to define Christian…biblically?

    And I wonder if Joe has ever read in his studies

    Romans 10:8-11

    “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”[d] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

    This doesnt mention doing any of the things he says he has done. Sounds like he was misled by someone.

  8. IC I will agree with you that RC doctrine is false for the most part. Although Im am thankful that they are a strong voice against abortion. Thats another issue though.

    I would like to ask you and others this. Even though RC doctrine is false, does that mean that no one in the RCC is saved or can be saved as long as they are a part of that church?

  9. I would like to ask you and others this. Even though RC doctrine is false, does that mean that no one in the RCC is saved or can be saved as long as they are a part of that church?

    No it does not. As I mentioned, their “bits” of truth if someone is truly called to the Son by the Father, will get someone searching for the truth. They can stand on Christ in faith and then see RC is apostate. I think IN TIME they will leave. Just as I was once part of the Prosperity garbage and some other things, but the Lord called me out of it. I was able to start with bits of truth, read my Bible and realize I was full of a lot of false bits that had to be cleaned out. First saved and then down a LONG road of sanctification and conforming.

    So someone can start in RC, start realizing full truth from just the little they get there versus how it does not jive with scripture and move forward. Melvin Jones use to be RC and lots of other folks. I thought I had a long road till I talked with him and GaryV 😆 . GaryV used to also be RC.

    Really some even in RC don’t know the full RC doctrine, but those embracing the full RC doctrine…I don’t see how it would be possible for them to be saved in a state of full knowledge and endorsement of the full RC catechism.

  10. For me, no one knows who is and who is not saved, we may have a pretty good worldly perspective, but they remain just that. We do not know what a person may experince later in life etc..Exposing false teachings with the light of scripture is much more productive to building up the body of Christ. We are Priests to ourseleves, not others, and Jesus being our High Priest – IMHO.

    The RCC does not equal an individual soul so we can’t say “they”. I would use scripture again to shed light on where they have replaced God’s word with the traditions of men (their Church).

    GCMW: I understand what you are saying Mark. Just to add clarity there are clear lines about WHAT salvation is. IF a person fails to meet those qualifications, then we can only say that they are not saved. It would be disengenous (sp) to say that we dont know.

    Jesus said failure to believe condemns an individual. John 3: 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

  11. As I understand this and I may be off, The Roman Catholic Doctrines are orthodox. Their dogmas and subteachings; Purgatory, The Veneration of Mary, Immaculate Conception (which is not just related to Christ’s incarnation), and many others have pollutted the truth with extrabiblical teachings. Don’t they believe that the traditions are equal to scripture?

    Anyway,
    Joe Brummer, I am going to pray for you. I don’t say that in a condescending way at all. I am really going to pray for you that yopu find the true faith in the personal GOD and creator of the worlds and they they dwell therein. You are not really an atheist, are you. You believe that there may be an impersonal creator. Would that be a force? That impersonal creator is the one true GOD who revealed himself through Christ. We should all pray for Joe to come to faith in that creator.

  12. Sorry, I see how what I said would be unclear.
    He who does not repent of their sins in the name and blood of Jesus Christ – are not saved. We do indeed know what is required for salvation.

    and..

    1 John 2:22Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.

    Deny the eternal diety of Christ – not saved.

    Romans 15:4 For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

    – deny the authority of God’s word, not saved.

    Acts 22: 16 ‘Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.’

    – Joe has no excuse, no one has.

    2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

    -God is patient, but He will not wait forever. If you are unsaved God’s arrow of eternal wrath is aimed right at your heart! If that does not make one fearful – they are an apostate and doomed for eternal destruction.

    Rev 2: 21’I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.

    All recieve what they have asked for – no God, and no more hope.

  13. Jimmy,
    I appreciate your prayers and thoughts. I will report that I am still now, and will be later, an atheist. Truth is we are all atheists. You are an atheist when it comes to thor, Allah, or Zues. I just happen to go one god further.

    I have not said, nor do I actually believe there is any god, personal or impersonal. If you have gathered otherwise, you have done so incorrectly. I did say “at best” you could persuage me to talk about an impersonal god. I said that only to emphasize that I really don’t believe in the Abrahmic god of Yaweah.

    Sarah,
    I am not sure what to make of your post, but I can assure you I have no rage against god. Pretty hard to rage against something I do not believe exists. I respect your beliefs or at best, I try to. I would appreciate the same benefit from you. I am not sure I am comfortable not do I think it polite to “tell” others what they do or don’t believe.

    DL Foster,
    No, I have not studied that particular part of Romans or if I did, I do not remember it. It wouldn’t change my mind either way. My loss of faith really stems from my thoughts about an “all knowing god” and Free will not from any part of the bible. I do take some issues with the whole sent his son to pay for sins? but it wouldn’t matter. The only reason I was ever a Christian is because I am American. Had I been from the Middle East, I would have been Muslim, had it been Vietnam, I would have been Buddhist., etc….

    I do find it facinating that few people actualy answered DL’s questions about what it biblically means to be a Christian. Most seem to concerned with “joe Brummer” to answer the question.

  14. Elder Jimmy,

    Catholicism is orthodox Christianity. Roman Catholicism is not . Catholicism and the doctrines are not the same. See the link I provided to a post of videos that show the RC catechism versus the Bible.

  15. Joe, the rest of your post after the remarks I noted seemed intent on disproving that America is not a so called Christian nation.

    I agree and say it isnt primarily because Christian isnt or rather shouldnt be an adjective.

    That’s not nearly as important as what the condition of your soul is. That’s what I addressed. My point is that your Christian nation repudiation was predicated on your own personal self identity as a Christian.

    I say that you were misled about what being a Christian is, therefore you were simularly misjudging America. You were using the same faulty criteria. Im not sure about other religions but simply living in a country with a predominate religion does not make you an adherent of that religion. Again, you seem to have a faulty premise on that.

    No one can force you to accept truth about yourself and your rejection of Jesus Christ. Trust me it isnt anything new. The punishment for rejection of Christ is severe beyond belief. But again its your choice. Whether you accept or reject doesnt change what will be.

    You are like many people who accept principles of Jesus Christ, but refuse to submit to his authority. Ghandi was one of those people. But according to Christ, following his principles isnt the same as following him As a matter of fact the difference is weighed in eternal consequences.

    And youre right, no one really answered the questions biblically.

    I could have, but wanted to see if others would do so.

  16. Joe,
    the answer to Pastor Foster’s question has been answered, using the Bible – what are you reading? did you again miss Romans 10:8-11?

    Lastly, I for one am no more (after several years) concerned about you, your salvation than I am about the lent content in my pant’s pockets. You, Joe are in God’s hands, I happen to trust Him.

    They deserve to be cast into hell; so that divine justice never stands in the way, it makes no objection against God’s using his power at any moment to destroy them. Yea, on the contrary, justice calls aloud for an infinite punishment of their sins. Divine justice says of the tree that brings forth such grapes of Sodom, “Cut it down, why cumbereth it the ground?” Luke 13:7. The sword of divine justice is every moment brandished over their heads, and it is nothing but the hand of arbitrary mercy, and God’s mere will, that holds it back.

    – Jonathan Edwards

  17. DL,
    I think it is important to note: Repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin – acknowledging the truth brings about a desire to obey. I can’t repent for something I do not Believe; nor can I truely believe and not repent. Repentance is the key to salvation and that is what a child of God will do, and that is a Christian – a slave to Christ. If it’s not an adjective, what is it? maybe a noun would be better?

    I have prefered to use I am Saved vs I am a Christian.
    I am saved because I belong to Christ etc..I know many “christians” that are not saved.

    make sense?

  18. DL writes: “No one can force you to accept truth about yourself and your rejection of Jesus Christ. Trust me it isnt anything new. The punishment for rejection of Christ is severe beyond belief. But again its your choice. Whether you accept or reject doesnt change what will be.”

    Joe note: You also cannot force yourself to accept “truth” either. I would subject that it is not possible to “make” yourself believe in anything. Either you do or you don’t. I can no more make myself believe in the divinity of Christ than you can make yourself belief in Allah. The human mind doesn’t work that way. Would you agree with this?

    I would love to hear what this sparks in your mind as you read this thought.

  19. Right Mark, it is a noun.

    The only reason I have a problem with the term is because it has been taken away from its original meaning.

    The same applies to “saved”.

    But the point was to take the term Joe Brummer used and show him how he wrongly applied it to his life.

  20. DL also writes: But the point was to take the term Joe Brummer used and show him how he wrongly applied it to his life.

    Joe replies: I don’t think the way I applied or didn’t apply the word Christian changes the point of my article.

    you stated correctly and is the point of my article: “But according to Christ, following his principles isnt the same as following him.” and the entire point of my article is that this cannot be a CHristian nation because if it was we would see more of Christ’s principles in the nation and we don’t.

    GCMW: Right, if the nation isnt Christian simply because it follows (or pretends to follow) Christian principles, then neither would you be a Christian for doing the same.

  21. You also cannot force yourself to accept “truth” either. I would subject that it is not possible to “make” yourself believe in anything. Either you do or you don’t. I can no more make myself believe in the divinity of Christ than you can make yourself belief in Allah. The human mind doesn’t work that way. Would you agree with this?”

    WARNING: apples and oranges discussion looming near.

    No, I said “no one can force you”. That’s external and different from me forcing myself which would be internal. There’s no forcing. Doesnt “force” violate the nonviolent principles that Ghandi stole from Christ?

    Once again because you are missappropriating a term you keep coming up with a faulty result.

    If it is your understanding that we are making (being forced whether externally or internally) ourselves be Christians, follow Christ, obey the Bible, etc, you truly do not understand the rudiments of our faith. The same faith you claimed to have been a part of for many years.

  22. You may not have understood what I am saying. (based on your response)

    I am saying that you cannot “force” or “make” yourself believe in anything. So, I cannot choose to believe in Jesus CHrist as “my lord and savior” anymore than you can choose to believe or not believe in ghosts.

    You are proposing people choose to believe and I am saying that is impossible. It is impossible to “reject” or “accept” god at will.

    So, where you are saying that I reject god, I am saying that is impossible to do that at will. It is simply not a choice. Can you make yourself believe in something that you do not?

  23. DL writes: GCMW: Right, if the nation isnt Christian simply because it follows (or pretends to follow) Christian principles, then neither would you be a Christian for doing the same.

    Joe replies: I would agree with you on this….could be I was never a “real” christian and now, I am not one at all.

    GCMW: Based on comparison of your stated criteria against what the Bible says, it could be you were never a real Christian. Just like there are fake Gucci bags, there are also fake Christians. I think you were misled.

  24. I apologize, in advance, for just posting so many links below to answer the question “what is a Christian.” I am a bit pressed for time.

    The simple answer to that question is that the term “Christian” means “Christ in one.” Jesus told us that we MUST be born again. It is none of the things that DL – astutely points out – in the list of 10 questions above. We are born of water and then re-born of the spirit. When we confess our sins at the foot of the cross, understand that Jesus paid the debt for our sins that we could never pay of our own accord, repent (turn away) of our sins, believe on our Lord Jesus Christ, and invite him into our hearts, in the form of the Holy Spirit to indwell our souls – it is then we are saved and belong to Him for all eternity.

    For more details, please see Becoming a Christian. There, you will see a link to “The Good Test.” After taking “the good test,” there is also a link to ten steps for new and growing Christians.

    My post today at Talk Wisdom discusses the fact that There is a Cost To Sin. It addresses and emphasizes why there is a necessity for the substitutionary atonement through Jesus Christ’s crucifixion on the cross at Calvary in order for sinners (which includes all of us) to be reconciled back unto God.

  25. First Joe we choose to see what we want to see and you obviously hear what you want to hear…The quote was a refrence from C.S. Lewis on the reactions of many athiest. I put you in that context after reading
    http://blogforbooks.com/archives/2007/08/11/when-militant-homosexuals-attack/ an article where you accuse people of doing what you seem to also do.

    Also Joe a Judeo-Christian nation is simply the body of concepts and values which are thought to be held in common by Judaism and adapted by Christianity, and typically considered by some (sometimes along with classical Greco-Roman civilization) a fundamental basis for Western legal codes and moral values.

    In particular, the term refers to the common Old Testament/Tanakh (which is a basis of both moral traditions, including particularly the Ten Commandments); and implies a common set of values present in the modern Western World.
    An perfect example of this is homosexuality where we unlike Islamic socities stone or behead gay people.

    Under Shariah law they do this we in the West are opposed to such actions because of a shared view of human dignity and our support of liberty over virtue. While we support virtuue we do not seek to force it on to others, so in an Islamic nation there is the apperance of morality we would say its a false morailty because choice was never allowed.

    Homosexuality or Sodomy laws were thrown out in the United States because of this concept of liberty, they gay rights movement has been giving many freedoms under this nation where in other nations they would never recieve.The funding of gay centers , the allowance if gay marches and the study on homosexuality at state run universities prove that this nation lives up to its ideals despite our religious tradition.

  26. I don’t mean to interupt this interesting dialouge, but I think DL asks a wonderful question – what is a “Christian” and what does being “saved” mean?

    A biblical answer, to the point and concise – would be a great benefit to those who do not know Christ and perhaps bring those who do, back to the truth if they have been decieved.

    My answers are long, perhaps not very concise and subject to decent and fair criticism. maybe some folks have some ideas here?

    To be honest Joe, I have no idea what you mean when you say “So, I cannot choose to believe in Jesus CHrist as “my lord and savior” anymore than you can choose to believe or not believe in ghosts.

    As a rational man, you look at the evidence, and make a choice – No? You can indeed “choose”, you have “chosen” a postion…right?

    I happen to think God’s word is the very center of such – reject it or embrace it. God’s absolute truth’s are, without ever picking up the text, wriiten on every human heart. Having the very blessing of the text in front of them, preached to them secures either TWO choices . God (His Word) is your Master, or He is not.

  27. You are absolutely correct Mark, but what I mean by “So, I cannot choose to believe in Jesus Christ as “my lord and savior” anymore than you can choose to believe or not believe in ghosts.” is exactly that. I have examined the evidence and I don’t believe it. I can’t make myself believe under threat of hell or damnation. I just don’t believe.

    Look at it this way, even if I wanted to believe, I don’t.

    Mark writes: As a rational man, you look at the evidence, and make a choice – No? You can indeed “choose”, you have “chosen” a postion…right?

    Joe replies: Well that is a simplified version of reality. I look at the evidence and either I believe it or not. In this case of god, not. It is much like a jury. They cannot make themselves believe someone is guilty or not guilty. The evidence either moves them or it doesn’t. That said, with the evidence I have so far, I am not moved. It isn’t a choice, it is a conclusion.

    It all comes down to Pascal’s Wager. You cannot make yourself believe just for the sake of believing.

  28. The spiral of degradation described in Romans chapter 1:18-27, not only describes the progression to suppress the truth in the unrepented homosexuals heart, it describes the progression that leds to the suppression of truth about God in every prideful human being that looks at the purposeful creative design of creation, and resist the truth about God.

    Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

    So GCMWATCH I choose not to believe Joe. I choose to believe the bible. I believe God has shown Joe the truth, he knows it and he’s used his free will right to deny God.

    Romans 1:19 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.

    God has already shown Joe that He’s real many times over. Many times the atheist is misdiagnosed and is really agnostic for more on this profound truth click here http://www.wayofthemaster.com/ I challenge Joe to take the atheist test on that site and come back and holler at us. For a person to even claim such an absolute untruth “THERE IS NO GOD” they have to have absolute knowledge about everything. There’s more proof on the side of a GOD THAT IS PERSONAL. The bible is clear that God reveals, and men who want their sin, surppress the truth that’s in their heart and talk like Joe. Please do not waste your time trying to get Joe to prove something he can’t prove. Just pray that Joe has a real encounter with Gods love and not His wrath. Good post GCMWATCH. Keep up the good work

  29. Let me add this as an answer to the WHAT IS A CHRISTIAN or WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE SAVED. A Christian is a person who’s chosen Christ above everything else, and chooses to live life within the boundaries God has set, the NARROW ROAD if you will. There are many people that come on these different sites and say many things. But I want to proclaim that The Holy Spirit reveals the biblical Christ to mens hearts. When the real gospel is preached there’s only one response that God is looking for, and that’s heart felt REPENTANCE. Repentance is the element in the salvation process that provokes men to not just see Christ as the door, but to go throught the door of Christ and get on the NARROW PATH and walk the walk of daily repentance and devotion to Him. For many years I thought I was a Christian because I knew songs about the door, knew scriptures about the door. I even dance for joy because of the door. But every time I got close to the door opened it and saw the narrow road on the other side, I chose rather to sing and dance for years and admire the door from a distance. Much of my devotion was merely emotion. Until I got radically saved I was a sexaully perverted, crackhead carnal christian, I would have been one of those people that stood before God at judgement saying “didn’t I prophesy, didn’t I cast out demons…..didn’t I sing and dance”. And He would have said, I NEVER KNEW YOU!!! Now, many of you may not agree with this but MEN, ALONE DO NOT REVEAL SALVATION TO OTHER MEN. I’m a Pastor and have a public ministry, but my public ministry doesn’t give any absolute proof of my salvation, and as wonderful as my pastor thinks I am (lol), he knows nothing about my private life. The only person that might be able to give an accurate opinion about my salvation is my wife, because she sees the public and the private life. Salvation is a miracle work of the heart done by the Holy Spirit. It’s The Holy Spirit that does the regenerating work in the heart, and scripture tells you what that salvation looks like. Men can only confirm what you should already know. They can tell you that you’re doing good, and they can tell you that you’re growing, they can even tell you that they see fruit in your life. BUT YOU HAVE TO KNOW YOU’RE SAVED, AND YOU TO EXAMINE YOURSELF IN THE LIGHT OF SCRIPTURE. Now please don’t take this out of context, there are evidences and fruit that would indicate your salvation and God certainly uses men for the perfecting of the saints (eph 4). The bottom line is, your saved when you know there’s been total disruption, and change in your nature by the HOLY SPIRIT, and you give all GLORY TO CHRIST.

    12 years saved from Gods wrath…God Bless

  30. Mark, I too dont understand the “I cant choose” remark. To reject Christ or to disbelieve in God is choosing one position over another. Even to say that one cannot choose is a choice.

    Not only is it spiritually incorrect, Its illogical.

    Choice is embedded within human life itself by the Creator himself.

    Humans and robots are two different things.

  31. PastorK, you preaching! and praise God for all those saved from the wrath to come. Its not God’s desire that any should perish but that all come to repentance.

    When a person CHOOSES Christ, it is not as a partner, but you choose to serve him as LORD.

    Which means that your life and all that it entails is subject FIRST to the leading of and obedience to Christ.

    Thats one of the MAIN problems with the gay christian movement. They are not Christians.

  32. DL writes: Mark, I too dont understand the “I cant choose” remark. To reject Christ or to disbelieve in God is choosing one position over another. Even to say that one cannot choose is a choice.

    Joe replies (perplexed at that): I am not sure how you would not understand this concept but I will make it simple. If I tell you that you must believe that the ghost of Elvis is living in Graceland or you will spend eternity listening to Karen Carpenter in slow speed you would laugh at me and say “yeah, right”. Thats how I feel about god!

  33. DL,
    Thanks brother for making me get back into the texts – A Christian is a “disciple” – those who accept the teachings of the apostles ACTS 11:26.

  34. Doesn’t a lot of Joe’s ideals of what constitutes a Christian have to do with the fact that he was raised Catholic? Had he been raised in the same religion as I was (Conservative Holiness) then he would have a totally different take and understanding. To really understand where you are coming from as a Christian, Joe would need to drill down into the variations of Christianity that have sprung up over the past 2000 years.

    I like the scripture that says “be ye imitators of Christ” because in the end that is what truly constitutes a Christian. I don’t see where a Christian is one who “accept the teachings of the apostles”, rather a Christian is one who has placed Jesus Christ above all else. To become a Christian we must “believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him.”

    As for Pastor K’s assertion that “you’re saved when you know there’s been a total disruption” I’m not certain that’s scriptural. The scripture is pretty clear – “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.” It takes belief in Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Following salvation is when the fun really starts. We aren’t perfected all at once. We don’t become grown ups overnight, per Paul. Salvation doesn’t bring about some kind of dump of knowledge and insight into our lives. But it starts us on a journey; a journey of following the Master. I can’t think of anything better.

    j.

  35. j says
    I don’t see where a Christian is one who “accept the teachings of the apostles”, rather a Christian is one who has placed Jesus Christ above all else.

    If one is to place “Jesus above all else” where would one learn of this “jesus” you speak of and claim has savior if not the apostles?

  36. Jonathan says ” I’m not certain that’s scriptural”

    Jonathan I don’t post, and get on these sites to prove anything to appear deep. And refuse to argue with someone that seems to have a decent grasp of scripture. But if you need a scriptural reference to what I meant here it is.

    Acts 9:1 Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.
    3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”

    PAULS CONVERSION WAS A CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF DISRUPTION OF NATURE, PURPOSE, SIN ETC.

    Anytime there is a real encounter with God and man there’s a DISRUPTION, in your nature, your plan, your views, your religion, EVERYTHING! Things you loved that God hates, you soon begin to hate. This was evident not with just Paul, but all the Apostles. The Doctrins of the Gospel don’t start with the Apostles, it starts with the work of the Holy Spirit done through the Apostles. Now, If we are going to preach the Gospel then we have to tell the truth….the whole truth.

    Jonathan said: The scripture is pretty clear – “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.” It takes belief in Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

    Of course this is true, know one disagrees with that , but understand this.

    John :23-25 23 Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did. 24 But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men, 25 and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man.

    Jesus doesn’t commit himself to everyone that believes. Why? Because He knows what in man. This is why there will be people that will stand before God at judgement and say…LORD LORD DIDN’T I…..Know one said you’re supposed be perfected all at once, know one said you should become grown ups overnight. But if you can examine yourself (2 cor 13:5) and see some major DISRUPTIONS OF THE OLD YOU…….YOU’RE NOT SAVED!!!! There’s only one thing that’s worst than going to Hell. That’s going to Hell, with BELIEF AND KNOWLEDGE!!!

  37. When one says “being Christian” I think that puts the emphasis on man and not God. IF you have truly been born again of the Holy Ghost you know it. Although many apostates may “claim” the same their words and actions clearly show they are not. I can only tell you that I am saved and God’s elect. My mind is constantly on Jesus in some shape matter or form throughout the day. The Holy Ghost convicts me oftentimes at night when I pray regarding areas where I failed throughout the day. The Lord has many times kept me from situations. I could go on and on but I think you get what I’m saying. in fact, IC had an excellent post over on his site regarding salvation regarding the Elect. You see, to be God’s elect is not some prayer line or some confessional. When I was saved the Holy Ghost entered me while I was driving my car. I felt this absolute need to repent. I cried. I felt ashamed. I repented. Then miraculously I felt the weight of the world come off my shoulders. I remember at that point saying, ” I’ve been saved”. I had to pull over and get out of my car. At that point I knew what happened. There was no mistaking what happened I didn’t accept Jesus at a church service. I didn’t accept Jesus by watching a Sunday sermon on TV. I had NO reason to accept Jesus. In other words we hear often times of people doing this or doing that. Being caught up in this or that. Next thing you know your at your wits end and then at your darkest hour you feel the presence of God. You know the story. This was not my situation. I just remember that day I was saved and I have never been the same since. I had no reason to accept Jesus, but Jesus has his own reasons to elect me.

    Kyle

  38. Regarding Joe,

    IF Joe was saved he could not be an ex-Christian. Just as when I rebelled at times the Holy Ghost was ALWAYS convicting me. As much as I wanted to engage in the flesh and sometimes did I still could not be drawn away from God. This goes back to election. I am drawn to Christ like a moth to a flame. Even in my time of backsliding my life was torment. I constantly felt the conviction of the Holy Ghost. I was like a lost Lamb trying to run away but all the while looking back and seeing Jesus following me to bring me back. I never had peace in my life while backsliding. If Joe is perfectly content with his life and feels no compunction towards repentance he obviously was never saved and is not the Elect of God. Joe is merely acting out of his flesh like every other person who is not saved. Pastor Foster, this would answer why the Gay Christian Movement has nothing to do with repentance. This is why Barrack Obama’s Church is only focused on Social movements. This is why TBN is focused on Pimpin. In other words there not Churches at all filled with Saints of God but they are merely acting out their flesh desires while wrapping themselves in the Cross. There is no such thing as an ex-Christian. There is no such thing as the Prosperity Gospel. There is no such thing as a Gay Christian. You are either saved and one of the Elect of God or you are of the world. Basically Pastor You and I are saved and we are moved by the Holy Ghost. If one is not saved they can become anything their flesh desires. They can call themselves “gay” Christians. They can call themselves prosperity teachers. They can call themselves emergent Church Christians. But most importantly none of them will be called the Elect of God like You and I and everyone else who is truly saved.

    Kyle

  39. Kyle writes: “But most importantly none of them will be called the Elect of God like You and I and everyone else who is truly saved.”

    Joe replies: well aren’t you special…..

  40. Joe Said: well aren’t you special…..

    You are correct. I am special. But NOT because anything I did. All the glory be to God for He saved me.

    Kyle

  41. knowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww not no, the truth

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