Spinning sin the exexgay way

Meet Michael Bussee. He’s one of about five people who helped set up Exodus International in 1976. That’s his claim to fame. Had he not sinned, abandoned his wife and daughter for homosexual adultery, you might have never heard of him. But now, he’s an ex-exgay spokesman. Last year, the ex-exgay group Beyond Exgay (BEG) began trotting out people like Bussee to publicly “apologize” for believing and teaching homosexuality is a sin. Their major contention: they couldn’t become “straight”. We’ve already addressed that fallacy, but its now becoming lucrative for them to make such declarations.

In the video, Bussee says he is an ordained Presyterian elder and member of the church choir. Spiritually, that’s no real accomplishment, but Bussee uses it as leverage to serve himself some credibility. After all, if an ordained Presbyterian Elder says being gay is okay with God, then that settles things. What he hopes is that you will be spiritually immature enough not to know he’s about to draw a false parallel.

As we discussed in this post,  the word “Christian” actually has a narrow definition in scripture. Yet, many of those who are backslidden are attempting to spin their sin by claiming since they could not become heterosexual by their own efforts, its justification for them to claim God made them homosexual. Bussee cites predictable gcm lines: “you can be both christian and gay” without any biblical substanitation.

Bussee’s first error is to create his own “proof”.

Hundreds of thousands of people of all faiths who embrace both both their sexuality and their spirituality.”

According to Michael Bussee, numbers equal sanction.  But that conflicts with scripture. As a matter of fact, if you looked at Numbers 25 you’d see that God destroyed 24,000 Isrealite men for sexual sin. In Exodus 33, Moses commands the Levites to put 3,000 to death for idolatry and sexual sin (vss 25-29). Note: God would have destroyed them all, except for Moses’ intercession (vss 7-9).

More sin spin:

“Everybody at my church knows I’m gay and nobody cares. Its a non issue the issue is that God loves you and we join together to affirm that.”

His secord error is to judge himself by a false standard.  Judging oneself according to human standards rather than God’s always results in a false conclusion.  In this case he falsely concludes that sin is a “nonissue”. You may wonder why gay christians avoid using the Bible as a source  self examination. Just listen to Michael Bussee and it becomes clear why.



31 thoughts on “Spinning sin the exexgay way

  1. Pastor Foster,

    Just like I said in a previous post regading “what” it means to be a Christian is more than just some profession of faith and quasi-repentance. This guy is no ex-ex anything. He was never saved in the first place. He can crow all he wants about his “Christian” credentials but he is not the elect of God. Once you have been truly born again the Lord begins to change you. In this process you may, and probably will backslide. However during the long run you can see the place when you started and were first saved and where the Lord has brought you too in the present. This Michael Bussee sadly was never saved. I’m sure he “tried” to be straight. I’m sure he “tried” to be Christian. But sadly if the Holy Ghost never indwelt you in the first place than all that trying is mere window dressing. Sadly, he is only doing what unsaved people do all the time. He is justifying his sin. What else can one expect. He is in bondage to his nature whic he had since birth. This same nature you and I once were a slave too untill the Lord Jesus set us free. Michael Bussee is only following his father Satan. He is blind. Once you have been set free you are free indeed. He was never set free in the first place.


  2. The claims of the gcm threathen just about all of the foundational Christian tenets there are including sin, salvation, heaven, hell even the ressurection.

    My question is if the foundations be destroyed what will the righteous do.

    We had better decide now that we will defend and contend for the faith once delivered to the saints.

  3. A long time ago, Satan put into our minds, we too could be like God, we could make ourselevs happy – problem is, there is no happiness apart from God.

    That is why folks continue to seek something other than God for happiness – albeit with the absolute good, holy and right things God has created. Bussee lives by his own standard – not God’s, hence he shall never find life nor peace, just a temporary lie – he is a god and his standard is above Gods. A recipe for hell if you ask me.

  4. I define ex ex gays as those reverting back to a distorted view of human sexual behavior and sexual identity. In most Christian circles we call it backsliding or returning to a sinful life. However unlike other sins the homosexual community has spun this sin to make it look good. Similiar to the serpent in Genisis in the garden they ask “Is it true that God has said you must not do this”?

  5. People who claim to be “ex-ex-gays” and make the argument “I tried to change and it didn’t work” remind me of obese people who “tried” Dexitrim, Weight Watchers, Jenny Craig, Slim-Fast and a number of other programs and products but complain that they are still fat. Because they are undisciplined gluttons who don’t want to change their entire life but want a quick fix they fail. They do not see that change is a life long process of learning spiritual self-control and transformation of the mind, heart and soul. (Romans 12:-12; Galatians 5:22-23) How many can say that they truly “..crucified the flesh with its passions and desires”? (Galatians 5:24) The ex-ex-gays tried the ungodly method Darwinian-Freudian reparative therapy nonsense via Jospeph Nicolosi and Richard Cohen (which is sadly promoted by Exodus Int.) or they have tried “shock therapy” and a million other experimental psychological techniques like Mel White but they haven’t been discipled by Bible believing God-fearing men who can model for them what it means to think and live as a Christian man following Jesus Christ. Until the church starts doing its job to make disciples and Christians stop buying into the satanic psychobabble of Dr. James Dobson we will continue to have ex-ex-gays who have a legitimate complaint “I tried that and it didn’t work.” Repentance is forever and not a one time “tried that.” While there will always be weeds amongst the wheat and those who respond to the gospel but fall away the church should be giving them a justification for doing so.

  6. Rik and Sarah,
    thanks for those comments. Those of us who have struggled with ssa in our lives know that real freedom is a lifelong process of repentance, submission and discipline to the Lord Jesus. Of course thats the same for anybody who wants to live holy no matter what they are faced with.

    Sarah I almost titled this post “Backsliding the exexgay way”. Cause thats what it is. Anytime a person reverts back to sinful behavior either they were never saved to begin with or they are in a state of rebellion. Still God calls for them to repent and come home. Jeremiah 33

    Thats the good news for Bussee. You can repent NOW and be restored. After that its on you —with the help of the Holy Spirit— to control yourself and discipline your body. Romans 8

  7. Great points in the post and comments. The gay lobby loves to use the ex-ex-gay examples of some kind of proof points. But they don’t prove that homosexual isn’t a sin any more than ex-gays and ex-ex-ex-gays (triple ex-) prove that it is. The Bible is clear and emphatic that the behavior is sinful.

  8. How are we saved? By grace. Can anything (including us) separate us from His love in Christ Jesus? No. I am grateful that God is my Judge, not Kyle. Kyle has no business determining who is “really saved” and who is not. That job belongs to the Holy Spirt alone and not to any man.

    The Bible is NOT “clear and emphatic that the behavior is sinful”. Born-again Christtians can and DO disagree on what these passages mean in their original languages. Any person who claims to have perfect knowledge of what the Bible means is a fool. The Bible is the infallible word of God. People like Kyle and Neil are not.

  9. Michael,

    The Bible is clear. I know some GLBTQ apologists try to spin it otherwise, but lots of pro-gay people will concede that the Bible denounces the behavior. They just make false claims that God has changed things since there or that God is “homophobic.”

    100% of the verses addressing homosexual behavior denounce it as sin in the strongest possible terms.

    100% of the verses referencing God’s ideal for marriage involve one man and one woman.

    100% of the verses referencing parenting involve moms and dads with unique roles (or at least a set of male and female parents guiding the children).

    0% of 31,173 Bible verses refer to homosexual behavior in a positive or even benign way or even hint at the acceptability of homosexual unions.

    Claiming the above does not imply that I think I’m infallible or that I am judging the state of an individual’s soul. It is simply reading things in context, reading key words in the original languages and responding to the flaws in the reasoning of the pro-gay theologians.

  10. Mr Bussee thank you for your comments however, you continue to judge yourself with the words from your own mouth. There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end of it is death. Prov 16:25

    A fool is one who wont change when truth is presented to them. A wise man will turn and avoid danger.

    Let’s get our biblical definitions straight. Neither Kyle nor Neil made such a claim to have “perfect knowledge of the Bible”. You accused them of that without even addressing what they did say.

    They simply pointed out how you are living by a faulty perspective according to what the Bible clearly states.

    A wise person is cautious and turns from evil,
    but a fool throws off restraint and is overconfident (Proverbs 14:16).

    The way of a fool is right in his own opinion,
    but the one who listens to advice is wise (Proverbs 12:15).

    The one who trusts in his own heart is a fool,
    but the one who walks in wisdom will escape (Proverbs 28:26).

  11. Kyle certainly did claim that I was not saved. I don’t know about him, but I am saved by grace. Christ paid the full penalty of my sin — and yours. The debt was pain in full on the cross. Kyle has no business — and I mean NO BUSINESS — sitting in judgement of someone else’s salvation, and I am frankly appalled that “Pastor Foster” did not challenge him on this. Who does Kyle think he is?

    As to what the Bible does and does not say about homosexuality, I repeat: Sincere, born-again, Bible-believing Christians can and DO disagree on what these passages really mean. You think they mean one thing. I think they mean something else. To claim that you know for SURE what they mean is arrogant and not very Christ-like. Show some humility, for goodness sake. Admit that you may be wrong. I do.

  12. GCM Watch. By the way, I do not trust my own soul or my own judgement. I trust Jesus. My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus’s blood and righteousness. Trusting anyone or anything else is the real folly.

  13. “To claim that you know for SURE what they mean is arrogant and not very Christ-like. ”

    I find that to be a red herring and a rather ironic personal attack itself. You are just as sure of your position.

    Perhaps there are some “sincere” Christians who have thoroughly researched these issues and think the Bible has no issues with homosexual behavior or oxymoronic “same sex marriage.”

    Yet everyone I’ve encountered with those views has turned out to be insincere, in that they use foolish arguments about prostitutes, shellfish, etc. and ignore the obvious (Jesus said marriage was for one man and one woman from the beginning). They also tend to say that parts of the Bible aren’t true. Or they argue from silence (“the Bible never said anything about same-sex marriage”), an argument with about six major flaws in it.

  14. Kyle did not claim to have perfect knowledge of the Bible. That was your original complaint.

    “Once you have been truly born again the Lord begins to change you. In this process you may, and probably will backslide. However during the long run you can see the place when you started and were first saved and where the Lord has brought you too in the present.”

    The biblical definition of saved is one who has repented of their sins and accepted Jesus Christ as both Savior and then consequently LORD. Only then are you “saved”. Saved from what? From the wrath to come. If you are yet living in unrepentant, self declared sin (such as homosexuality) you have not been saved. No child of God who wants to see the Lord in peace would ever refuse to repent for their sins.

    You seem to be dancing around the white elephant in your video. The question on the table is have you repented TO GOD for your homosexuality? Or do you still say that homosexuality is not a sin, therefore you have nothing to repent for?

    And where is your scriptural support for your assertion
    “Kyle has no business — and I mean NO BUSINESS — sitting in judgement of someone else’s salvation”

    Mr. Bussee you say you are “appalled”. Are you also appalled that you refuse to agree with what God has said? The bible calls that being Godly sorry for your sins.

    Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid. Romans 6.1

  15. M. Bussee,

    Let me be frank with you and very straight forward. I too struggle with various sins. I still sin as ALL of us do. However let me give you some brief pointers.

    I never claim that any sin I commit is NOT sin.

    I never justify any sin I commit.

    I repent nightly of any sins I knowingly committed during that day.

    I ask God to take away my carnal desires that are not in line with his righteousness EVEN if my carnal nature desires those sins.

    I’m a young man and I struggle with sinful “heterosexual” desires not in line with God’s will.

    The above information should clarify my previous statement. You Michael Bussee are either

    A: Backslidden and not yet fully delivered from homosexuality but still saved.


    B: Unrepentant and not saved.

    My remarks pertaining to your salvation were not predicated on your homosexuality but rather your quote:

    “Hundreds of thousands of people of “all faiths” (My emphasis) who embrace both their sexuality and “their spirituality” (My emphasis).”

    By your own admission you include ALL faiths meaning Islam, Buddhist, Taoist, Judaism, etc, etc. By your own admission you are stating emphatically that ALL faiths have equal justification. By doing so your denying Christ as the ONLY way to salvation. Because of this my statement questioning your salvation was predicated on. It is one thing to claim salvation and attempt to justify ANY given sin including sexual sins. Heck! I used to justify various sins when I was a mere babe in Christ. However as I grew in faith God pointed out my error, pointed to the scripture for correction, and allowed people in my life who were also Christians to rebuke, correct, and provide guidance to me. You on the other hand claim salvation by Christ yet deny Christ as the only way. You can’t have it both ways. Therefore YOU denied Christ for ALL of those people who are not Christians. YOU provided the information for me to base my response. Therefore by you denying Christ for others shows that in your heart Jesus is NOT the ONLY way. That is a double minded man. Therefore my response was given as to why I don’t believe you were ever really saved. M. Bussee, NO ONE CAN GO TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH THE SON. If you can’t even agree with this most basic Christian tenet then YES I do question your salvation.


  16. Kyle: Wow! Do you have me all wrong!. I do respect other religious traditions (in the sense that I value religious freedom) and I think other faiths have much to offer, but as a Christian, I believe that “no man comes to the Father” except through Christ.

    I DO believe He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. I do not “deny Christ” as you accuse me of doing. Since I was saved in 1971, I have never denied that. On the contrary, I proclaim Him as Savior and Lord — saved by His grace.

    I am convinced of that and am not “double-minded” about it. He who has the Son has life. He who does not have the Son, does not have life. You might not like it, but tou and I actually agree on this very important point.

    Review what I actually said. I said: that there are “hundreds of thousands of people of “all faiths” who embrace both their sexuality and “their spirituality. That statement is true. There ARE people of all faiths who embrace both. Do I think all religions are equally valid? No way.

    You say that there are only TWO possibilities about my standing with God (because you are absolutley SURE the Bible says that all homosexual behavior is always sin). A: I am backslidden and not yet fully delivered from homosexuality but still saved. OR B: Unrepentant and not saved.

    There is another possibility. (C) I am saved but not perfect (We all still sin and if we say we don’t, we are liars) and homosexuality may not be a sin. I believe tht “C” holds true for me.

    CCMWatch asked: “Mr. Bussee you say you are “appalled”. Are you also appalled that you refuse to agree with what God has said?” I don’t disagree with what “God has said”. I disagree with YOU! You seem awfully arrogant about what “God said”.

    You don’t say, with some Christlike humility: “I BELIEVE this is what God said”. You say it as though you have perfect knowledge and COULD NOT POSSIBLY BE WRONG. Any way you slice it, that’s arrogance. We are all fallible in our understanding of Scripture and God’s will — including YOU. (What we know NOW is only partial, THEN it will be complete — when we behold Him face to face — 1 Corinthians 13:12.) Not until THEN.

    So neither you, nor Kyle, nor ANY man has the right to judge another man’s eternal standing with God. That’s God’s job.

  17. Michael,

    Excellent! Since we can agree on the most basic foundation then we can continue on with this debate. I have a few questions.

    Q #1 -Before original sin, do you think God intended for man with man and woman with woman?

    – Based on the facts below please answer the question at the end.


    Male sperm contains 23 chromosomes as does the female egg contain 23 also.

    The male appendage and the female anatomy are designed perfectly for each other.

    Male attributes are different from female and compliment each other.

    “bourgeonal” is the chemical released by the egg to purposely control the direction and location of the sperm towards the egg.

    Q #2 -If this is all true, how does homosexual sex fit into God’s design?

    “The heart is deceitful and desperately wicked; who can know it?

    Q #3 – Based on the above scripture is it possible although you are at peace with yourself that you just may be deceived?

    I’ll wait for your answers,


  18. Let me start with your last question. Is it possible that I am decieved? You bet. We are human. We are all capable of misunderstanding God’s will or of understanding it and rebelling against it anyway. This is true for you, too, isn’t it? If you are an honest man, you will say “yes”.

    I have no problem with the idea that God created man and woman to complement each other. There is no denying that human reproduction depends on these differences. But heterosexual relationships are not the only ones that have value and reproductive aibility does not determine what is sin and what is not. Sin is determined by the intent of the heart. Are we loving God with all our heart, soul and mind? Are we loving our neighbor as ourselves?

    As for your first question, I do not claim to know God’s intent before original sin. He made Adam and Eve. He also made other males and other females. I believe that loving gay relationships are somehow part of His design. Can’t prove it, but you can’t disprove it.

    Finally, are you willing to repent of the pride and arrogance you displayed in positioning yourself as the determiner of who is saved and who is not? I repeat: that is God’s job, not yours. Work out your OWN salvation with fear and trembling — and please leave mine to me and God.

    GCMW: Mr. Bussee you are arguing personal semantics and worldly wisdom. Not only is that forbidden in the proper interpretation of scripture, it is a telling sign that you are avoiding dealing with the sin in your life. We have yet to hear even a remote exegesis of scripture supporting your varied personal theses. Perhaps this is where you always steer wrong. Instead of looking at God’s Word and letting it speak without the interference of your own bias, perhaps you could see what GOD is saying as opposed to what you have predetermined it to say.
    Since we are repeating things,
    where is the scripture which forbids Christians from judging the salvation of another Christian?

  19. “I believe that loving gay relationships are somehow part of His design. Can’t prove it, but you can’t disprove it.”

    We have tons of Biblical evidence, not to mention the natural law arguments you appear to concede.

    “But heterosexual relationships are not the only ones that have value”

    Of course not, but the way you present that doesn’t advance your argument. The Bible is clear about where sex belongs. Male-male friendships and agape are a blessing, but adding sex to the mix does not make them better. There are countless loving relationships (friends, parent/child, teacher/student, pastor/member, siblings, etc.) that are made worse if sex is added to the mix.

  20. Michael,

    Look back at my 2nd post to you. You will see I claimed that I too sin and have sin desires so no arrogance here. I am a sinner saved by grace. So no I don’t assume I have all the answers. However, I never justify my sins nor do I attempt to avoid/deny various scripture which points out my sin. In other words, although you claim scripture as vague or inconclusive about the matter of Homosexuality the Bible in reality states otherwise.

    You said, “As for your first question, I do not claim to know God’s intent before original sin. He made Adam and Eve. He also made other males and other females. I believe that loving gay relationships are somehow part of His design. Can’t prove it, but you can’t disprove it.”

    I can’t see any way God would allow the act of Sodomy even in a loving relationship as part of his plan. The components do not work. The two systems involved are mutually exclusive from the act of sex. The very act of Sodomy creates fissures within the walls of the colon opening up the system to microbials and other diseases. It is clearly apparent by design this act is not of God nor was it part of his plan prior to creation.

    Let me expound and clarify the above. Prior to mans fall everything was “good”. God would never have allowed these acts to happen before the fall of man. Remember, prior to mans fall there was no sin, death, or sickness. If God would have allowed this act prior to the fall he would have been complicit in Man getting sick by performing such acts. Therefore prior to the fall God could not have had this in mind.


  21. There is another possibility. (C) I am saved but not perfect (We all still sin and if we say we don’t, we are liars) and homosexuality may not be a sin. I believe tht “C” holds true for me.

    There’s a big problem with your C option. You created it to benefit yourself.

  22. If you guys want to go Scripture by Scripture, let’s do it. You quote one and I will respond — one passage at a time, not all of them at once. Want to start with the destruction of Sodom? Let me ask this: As Christians, must we obey all Old Testament laws — or just the ones you like?

    GCMW: No, we dont want to engage in a yearlong exegesis of the bible. This is about the video you put out, remember?

    You seem to be saying that if A Christian does not understand each passage they same way you do that they are (a) not really saved and (b) spinning the Bible to suit their own purposes. You don’t leave open the possibility that we both are human and both might be incorrect or incomplete in our understanding.

    And Kyle, your argument that homosexuality (I assume you are talking about anal sex) must be sinful because “the components do not work. The two systems involved are mutually exclusive from the act of sex” is just plain silly. Straight, married couples do this too. Are they sinning if they do so?

    So bring it on. I am not arguing “semantics and wordly wisdom” any more than you are. I am telling you what years of study and prayer have led me to understand. I may be wrong. You may be wrong. OR is your understanding of Scripture perfect?

    You understand these passages in one way, I understand them differenly. It is arrogant to assert that only YOU could be right.

    GCMW: Please stop the ceaseless flow of red herrings. Our argument is that GOD and HIS WORD is right alone. It requires no “understanding them differently”. You are simply rejecting what is clear and evident. It is reminiscent of a man who argues that a stop sign doesnt mean stop. That’s exactly why we titled this post “Spinning sin the exexgay way”. You seem to have mastered the spin game. But tragically to your own spiritual detriment.

    And GCMW (whoever you are) you show me one scripture that says it is the PROPER role of one Christian to sit in judgement of the eternal salvation of another. Just one. You can’t do it, because God (alone) is Judge — and if you believe otherwise, you are just a self-righteous fool.

    GCMW: Here it is again, Presbyterian elder in the church choir:

    9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

    12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside

    Now, are you (a) in the church or (b) outside the church? Your choice, no pressure.

  23. Kyle, you said: “I too sin and have sin desires so no arrogance here. I am a sinner saved by grace. So no I don’t assume I have all the answers. However, I never justify my sins nor do I attempt to avoid/deny various scripture which points out my sin.”

    I am glad you said that. We are both sinners, both capable or error and misunderstanding and neither one of us has all the answers! That is what makes it so arrogant for you, or Pastor Foster — or ANY man — to bodly assert that I am not saved. Do you guys have a personal copy of God’s Book of Life that lists who is and who is not saved?

    NOPE. Only God knows and no “Christian” has the responsibility, the privelege or right to sit in judgement of another Christian’s eternal salvation. Not me, not Pastor Foster, not GCMW — and certainly not YOU.
    You go on to say that you ” never justify my sins nor do I attempt to avoid/deny various scripture which points out my sin.” Neither do I. If I KNEW that homosexuality was sin — and did it anyway, you would be right.

    Or, if I KNEW that Scripure prohibitted it and then tried to “justify” it or “avoided” those passages, then you would be right. But I don’t KNOW those things. I have studied the Bible, have read it many times, have prayed, thought, discussed, questioned and studied — and I have come to a different conclusion about those same passages that you use to condemn me..

    I do not “justify”, “deny” or “avoid” what the Bible has to say. I just understand it differently than you. — and that gives you no right to assume that I am not saved. Keep in mind that some Christians used Bible to justify slavery or deny women the right to vote or to prohibit “mixed” marriages. How do we decide who is “right” and who is “wrong”? We can only say what we BELIEVE. Only the Holy Spirit knows for sure.

  24. You just ignored 1 Corinthians 5. You asked for it, got it and then ignored it even though it SPECIFICALLY answered your rather juvenile assumption that no one can judge your salvation.

    Why not answer the simple question without all the unnecessary hyperbole?

  25. gcmwatch asked : “Now, are you (a) in the church or (b) outside the church? Your choice, no pressure.”

    That’s easy: Because I am part of His body, I am inside the Church and you, also being inside the Church, have a responsibility to point out my sin to me, try to correct me and then have no association with me if I do not repent. (That’s what 1 Cor. 5 ssys.) It says NOTHING about you deciding who is saved and who is not,

    And you can lay off the sarcastic jabs about me being a “Presbyterian elder in the church choir.” I shared that to point out that sincere Christians disagree on thesse issues — not as proof that my position carried more weight because I help serve communion, read the announcements or sing hymns. That’s just one of the ways I serve the Lord, not proof of the rightness of my ideas.

    Did I answer your simple question? I think so. You, however, did not answer mine — which was to prove Scripturally that is your job to judege someone else;s salavation. You ignored that — since, the fact is, there is no New Testament passage that gives you that right or responsibility.

  26. Oh Mr. Bussee, what else in the video did you want to explain? Or should we just go back to the beginning and have you fix every statement you made?

    You are being quite predictible here. You have already postured a fairly entrenched position that refuses to accept what is clearly set before you. That’s your right, but it is not what is written in the book.

    In your eyes, it is “difference of opinion”. That is just more of the postmodernist trash that has littered your thought processes. You hold to that because you do not want to admit that at the core of this, you, a self proclaimed homosexual christian are completely at odds with the Bible.

    Sure you use the ” no one knows what really right or wrong” and “no one can judge me or my salvation” defense to repel any truth a trying to penetrate your heart, but again it is only to your own detriment.

    Since you refuse to repent of what is clearly sin according to the scripture, then how is it you are saved? Just how is one saved when they continue in sin? How is a person justified by faith when they reject the fundamental requirement to embrace faith? If Christ died for us to have access to God through repentance how is it you can refuse to repent but keep your relationship with God nice and tidy? How did you get your exemption?

    The bible is clear as to what constitutes authentic change, salvation and relationship with God. If you take up any position or lifestyle opposite that, then its you and your opinion that has to change, not the scripture. As Jesus said, if you come any other way, you come as a thief and a robber.

    Moreover, The Bible doesn’t need an the opinion of “sincere” Christians to be right. It is just right. It is self contained truth.

    The raw truth is that you are illegitmate
    (a bastard) and not God’s, until you honestly turn from your sins, and stop teaching others that they too can disobey God and expect to have relationship with him. Stop teaching disobedience and death.

    Here it is:

    For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

    7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Hebrews 12

  27. gcmwatch: You arrogant, self-righteous man! It is not “clear”. It is clear to YOU. YOU MAY BE WRONG. Born-again (saved) Christians disagree. [GCMW: edited] Who appointed YOU the ultimate authority on what the Bible says and does not say, of who is saved and who is not? It’s repulsive, rather narcisisstic and not very becoming of a “pastor”.

    Your type of “Christian” — those who assert that only THEY are right, that only THEY know what the Bible teaches and that THEY have the right to judge whether or not someone is saved are the WORST kind of Christian — self-righteous, arrogant and so sure of themselves that they leave no real room for discussion. That’s a form of bigotry.

    I didn’t get an “exemption”. I got a pardon for my sins — just like you. I cannot “repent” of something that I simpy do not believe is sin. I am saved by grace, by Christ’s death on the cross and not by YOUR take on the Bible. Thank God for that!

    GCMW: Well, thanks for your honesty, although spoken in anger. You “dont believe homosexuality is a sin”. Well, let’s for a moment parallel your rather shallow logic. And your response if I made the statement: I don’t believe Martin Luther King, Jr. was assasinated in Memphis?

  28. Pastor: You say the Bible is: “self contained truth.” And what are you? The self-contained expert and final word on what the truth is? I thought pastors wee supposed to exhibit humility.

    Answer me this: What does the word “malakoi” mean? Why will “malakois” not go to heaven? How can you be sure what Paul meant when he used the term?

  29. malakoi

    1) soft, soft to the touch

    2) metaph. in a bad sense

    a) effeminate

    1) of a catamite

    2) of a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man

    3) of a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness

    4) of a male prostitute

    Genesis 3:1 all over again……please stop while you’re behind…

  30. Mr. Bussee you are clinging to a self defeating tactic and that is to question everything clearly revealed in scripture. That is the product of spiritual blindness and a seared conscience. The problem with your questioning its not wisdom unto salvation(2 Tim 3:15) through faith, but rather doubt and rejection based on the unrelenting defense of your own carnal desires.

    Apparently you missed something in your rush to shoot down what I said. The scriptures do not need the opinions of men in order to determine its veracity.

    You keep attempting to make me the focus of whether or not God’s word is true, but if I were removed from this earth never to return, God’s truth would remain intact. I suggest you and other gay christians abandon that approach.

    You want to argue the literal meaning of a word embedded in a passage which clearly condemns all forms of homosexual behavior? And I thought I was a “fundamentalist”.

  31. You know, I think I had better “bow out” at this point. I really can’t have a reasoned conversation with a man who believes (1) that HIS understanding of the Bible is the one and ONLY correct understanding of Scripture, (2) that anyone who disagrees with his view of Scripture is not a “real” Christian and (3) that he has both the right and the responibility to decide who is saved and who is not — when that is clearly God’s job only.

    That’s a “fundamentalist” in the worst sense of the word. And it is why I am very proud to say I am not one.

    (1) I do not claim, as you seem to claim, to have absolute understanding of the Bible or of God’s will. I am willing to admit I may be wrong but you, with your false sense of spritutal superiority and inlfated pride, are not willing to admit you may be wrong. That’s arrogance, no matter how you slice it — and that’s sin..

    (2) I think “real” Christians can and do disagree on what the Bible means. “Real” Christians have had real disagreements about Scripture for as long as the Church has been on Earth — and the are still Christians. When we BOTH get to Heaven, I think we will BOTH be surprised by how little we really understood — and we will BOTH have to humble ourselves. THEN our knowledge will be complete, but not until then.

    And finally (3) I would NEVER take it upon myself to determine who is saved and who is not. You (I am very happy to report) are not God and HE ALONE holds the Book of Life — not YOU!

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