A kum-bah-yah moment

That’s the feeling you might get when viewing this video of emergent practicioners Chris Seay and Shayne Wheeler talk about homosexuality and the church.

When we say God loves the sinner but hates the sin, homosexuals believe that God hates them because their sin is so wrapped up in their identity.”

That’s according to Wheeler, who after identifying with his ex-Catholic, lesbian neighbor who hates church (and Jerry Farwell, etc) said she understands that he’s not like that and they dont represent him. Although he admits there is no spiritual change in her, at least she, him and her lesbian partner (who probably hates church too) knows they can sit around the campfire, sing kum bah yah and hold hands while eating smoked weenies. That’s due to his hard work of changing perceptions.

The “dialogue” that is presented on the video is all about changing “perceptions”, not about changing souls. Its based on the assumption by homosexuals that y+x=z, to wit since the church believes homosexuality is a sin, it hates me. Therefore if the church hates me, then, God surely hates me.

No one talks about how satan blinds the minds of sinners and puts in their heads the most negative thoughts about God, the church and the Bible. No one talks about how those who are in darkeness hate the light. No one talks about how sin is so destructive a person could not possibly understand the danger they are in.

This type of soft cell garbage psychology reminds me of an adult trying to reason with a temper throwing child in the store who wants candy and cant understand why the parent won’t just give him everything he wants, when he wants it!!

You can’t reason with a sinner about his sins. Can you imagine Peter on the day of Pentecost preaching to the crowds about how Jesus was a really nice man despite what the Pharisees said about him? And the Pharisees really didnt represent Peter or his friends? Here’s what he told them:

“Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[d] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. Acts 2:22-23 .

Later, when the people came running astonished at the power of God working through the uneducated Peter and John, he told them again:

Men of Israel, why does this surprise you? Why do you stare at us as if by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk? The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. (Act 3:12-15).

Today, Peter would be ostracized for being “unloving” and “unchristian” (emergent buzzword). The Word of God convicts the hearts of sinners so that they acknowledge their need for the Savior, not a need to change perceptions. If every negative perception about the church and homosexuals was completely erased, it would still miss the purpose of the gospel (Romans 1:16). People must acknowledge their own sin before God, repent and seek his forgiveness.

Anything less is not the gospel, its false doctrine.

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9 thoughts on “A kum-bah-yah moment

  1. Amen! Peter was so in-your-face with the truth in the beginning of Acts (“You killed the author of life!”). These man-made approaches don’t work. We should seek biblical wisdom instead.

  2. It’s a sad day today that California overturned the “voter ban” on same sex marriages! We are literally seeing society sink deeper and deeper into moral depravity.
    The homosexual agenda is being thrust upon us with every ounce of demonic force that’s behind it.
    We Christians that are holding fast to true biblical doctrine and not compromising nor giving in to this
    moral depravity better keep watching and praying like never before. Come quickly Lord Jesus, Come!

  3. The hour is late. Really late! Amen to the final line in the second comment “Come quickly Lord Jesus, Come!”

    Have a blessed evening in Christ.

    timbob

  4. While I do not agree with the ecclesiology and warmed-over “hip” liberalism that is now being sold in the so-called “emergent church” I think I have to disagree with you a bit here.

    First, in Acts 2 Peter was speaking to self-righteous Jews who were mocking what the Holy Spirit was doing at Pentecost. He was not speaking to those who were aware that they were sinners such as the tax collectors, prostitutes etc. Jesus only spoke harshly to self-righteous religious zealots (such as the Pharisees, Scribes and televangelists) while He dealt mercifully and gently with those who were lost and needed a Shepherd.

    For example, when He met the Samaritan woman who had been married several times and was living in fornication He did not quote the 7th commandment (though He could have rightly done so) but rather He pointed to her real need – the Living Water which alone can truly quench her thirst. (John 4) The woman thought that going from man to man was the solution to her problem. She needed the truth given in a loving and humble fashion.

    Likewise, gays think that their homosexuality is an ontological status (hence their identity) which is why they do not see it as something they DO but rather something they ARE. They have been lied to and they need the truth of the Word of God presented in a humble fashion. In doing so, we must remember that like Paul we can only say, “by the grace of God I am what I am.” (1 Cor. 15:10)

    Second, the job of the evangelist is to give comfort those who are afflicted in their sin and afflict those who are comfortable in their self-righteousness. If homosexuals or anyone else don’t want the gospel of freedom from sin in Jesus – then give them Moses and the condemnation of the law. But even then do not do so in a hypocritical self-righteous manner.

    If I were a Christian who was struggling with homosexual temptations and someone said to me what Jimmy Swaggart the prostitute lover, Jerry Falwell the glutton, or Fred Phelps the hate monger says to or about homosexuals I would never go to them for help.

  5. Rik, the focus is not so much on the presentation of the gospel, but the intent of the gospel message. That is absent from the video presentation.

    It may be up for debate about whether it is to be soft spoken or preached fervently, but when it is devoid of convicting truth it is powerless. That’s my “big picture” point.

    I think that far too many people lump “struggling homosexuals” (ask for my definition) with the self righteous gay christian movement. Certainly the “conservative” religious crowd is not without their whipping post hypocrites (as you noted) but that doesnt exclude those who are those who behave just like them on the gcm side of the issue. A hypocrite is a hypocrite.

    I can agree some what with a person not going to Jimmy, Jerry or Freddy for help, but there are plenty of people who are not like that, but the gcm is not seeking them out for help. So are they just using the harsh words as an excuse? And the larger question: will it justify them remaining in a sinful condition before God?

    I wonder if a man was drowning and someone he hated threw him a rope, would he get the rope and save his life or would he refuse the help and die? If Jerry told the truth, then it doesnt matter about his manner of presentation, it doesnt alter truth. We learned that with the case of the donkey in the OT.

    Thanks for your perspective.

  6. I don’t know about Jesus being that humble and loving when He was speaking with the woman at the well.
    He probably started out that way, but when He got to the point about telling her about her sin she was in, immediately she switched up and said “Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet”

    Now the prophets of old spoke Gods word with a fiery boldness. They didn’t hold anything back. So for her to go there and call Jesus a prophet, I can “eisegete” that His words came across to her with some boldness and conviction rather than all warm and fuzzy.

    I do agree that we don’t need to beat sinners over the head with our bibles, but we must present the gospel in a way, with the power of the Holy Ghost, that lets them know that God will not and does not condone sin…the old cliche’ still holds true, “come as you are, but know that you can’t stay that way.”

  7. The video clip is short so we can’t make more out of it than there is, but it seems to me that what they are trying to convey is: (1) We’re all sinners (2) Homosex is a sin like all others sins. (3) You need to gain the ear of homosexuals in a gay culture in the way in which you treat them. (4) Gaining their ear is accomplished by listening to them and not stereotyping them.

    In humble service a Christian can win a non-Christian “without a word.” (1 Peter 3:1) Obviously this does not mean that they can be won with THE Word (Romans 10:17), but that in order to be heard we must win the right to be word by presenting the hope that is within us “with meekness and respect” (1 Peter 3:15) But in order to do that we need to understand other cultures, even those that use the English language.

    As Henry Van Til (nephew of Cornelius Van TIl) wrote “culture” is “…that activity of man, the image-bearer of God, by which he fulfills the creation mandate to cultivate the earth, to have dominion over it and subdue it.” Culture is a reflection of one’s world-view (religious beliefs) and so anti-Christian cultures are seeking to bring dominion and subdue the earth and societies in a manner which is contrary to the authority of Jesus Christ. But there is another aspect of culture that transcends theological categories such as food, clothing, social customs and language.

    So, while I believe that we need to solidly stand for the Kingdom of Christ and that we cannot approach any subject from a supposed neutral ground (all ground belongs to Christ, hence the unbeliever is standing on HIS ground!) we must learn to understand how other cultures use language, terms and the connotations that often accompany certain ideas.

    There is a “gay culture” which is antithetical to Christian culture. If we are going to try to communicate to them, as we would with Buddhists or Muslims, we need to learn how they think, how they use terms, and how they (wrongly) understand themselves and the Christian worldview. Yes, I do believe that we need to build bridges of communication with all people in various cultures through meaningful and uncompromising dialog. We need to understand what the other means by what they say.

    This is true within Christian circles as well. For example, Roman Catholics, Lutherans, and Presbyterians all use the word “sacrament” differently and much of what is behind the Roman Catholic understanding is an entire Aristotelian construct developed by Thomas Aquinas. The result is that when a Roman Catholic uses the word “sacrament” and a Presbyterian uses the word “sacrament” the uninformed Baptist can’t tell the difference and thinks that the Presbyterian or Lutheran “sounds Roman Catholic.” The consequence is that Baptist theology frequently misrepresents Presbyterian theology and because many Protestants don’t understand the metaphysics of Thomas Aquinas they misrepresent Catholicism as well. Then when a Roman Catholic apologist hears the Protestant presentation of Catholicism he says to himself, “What an ignoramus!”

    The result of such misunderstanding of terms is that one side of the debate will find themselves saying to the other, “I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant.”

    In conclusion, if all that these men are saying is that we need to be good neighbors who are not self-righteous but rather seek to know the PERSON as well as false worldview that our neighbor is enslaved to, then I agree with them. But if they think we can schmooze people into the kingdom, then I would have to disagree. At some point the light has to shine in the darkness. Let us remember that the gospel is foolishness to the world (1 Cor. 1:18) and it is an offense to those who wish to hold on to their sin and self-righteousness. But we do not need to add to that offense with our own unloving attitudes and refusal to listen as well as speak.

  8. This isn’t that bad. It opens a new approach to such a sensitive issue. As ex-homosexual, i do appreciate the respect shown by both the interviewed pastors. Rik Fleming has basically said all what i wanted to 😉

    Blessings,

    GCMW: “a new approach”? And what would be the result of this “new approach”. Please answer biblically.

  9. This is a inspirational video. I wish every pastor carried these views. Just to hear them say that homosexuals are people and not the worst sinners, this is good news. As the pastors said, it all about the good news and Jesus. Many times some Christians people think that all homosexuals are sexually active which is not always the case. Every sinner need a Savior and he name is JESUS!

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