The "hetero vs homo" debate: is it a valid one?

As a minister in a denomination that ordains gay clergy and offers all of its members the full benefits of membership in a loving faith community, I have conducted several same-sex weddings. In my experience, the love and commitment between gay and lesbian couples is usually even stronger than that of heterosexual couples. Their love has to be incredibly strong to withstand the discrimination and oppression they face on a daily basis.”

That’s what Rev. Matt Tittle of the Universalist/Unitarian Church wrote in his Houston Chronicle column in the wake of the California gay marriage ruling. He said that homosexual love is usually stronger than heterosexual love.

Granted, Rev. Tittle is from an false denomination, but nevertheless many Christians who are for or against homosexuality sometimes argue the point that one is “better” or superior to the other. The question: is the “hetero vs homo” debate a valid one (or even necessary one) for a Christian? Why or why not? If you’d like to answer, please keep your comments related to the quote and the question, not the gay marriage ruling.

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47 thoughts on “The "hetero vs homo" debate: is it a valid one?

  1. This is not a valid debate. This is nothing more than the continuation of the degradation of society.

    We are at the point in time when darkness is light and light is darkness.

    Kyle

  2. It’s not a valid debate, because any claims of “love” outside of as God made from the beginning is nothing more than a love spawned from the dark and wicked heart of man.

    The heretic Universalist view of things can’t be held against an honest full read of Ephesians 5.

    The heretics love trying to put a debate on the level of philosophy of men. Where evil reigns and darkness always rules in favor of darkness.

  3. I agree the debate is not one Christians should argue, to wit heterosexuality is better than homosexuality in and of itself. Trying to argue which is best is like trying to argue that manslaughter is better than murder.

    That being said, In the Christian context, while God ordained male/female sexual relationships, even those have their restrictions. But it is still “good” if love and sex between a man and a woman is within the parameters of covenant marriage. Even with dating, no sexual intimacy between the man and woman is good for the relationship even if they intend to be married.

    The same can never be said of homosexual relationships in any context. According to Gen 1, they are not ordained, created nor sanctioned by God. Without God’s stamp of approval, it is just another form of sinful expression which can sometimes feel good (and right) but is still sinful.

    That’s why Rev.Tittle is wrong. Gay couples who tout their relational longevity (against heterosexuality) mean little when you look at it from a righteous standpoint. There are people who do wrong things for years, but longevity never sanctifies sin.

  4. I agree with the foregoing comments.

    And from what I’ve read about homosexuals, long-term relationships are extraordinarily rare, especially when compared to heterosexual relationships. What I *have* heard a lot of is a lot of casual and/or anonymous sex encounters, which has spread a tremendous number of diseases. These encounters and diseases are more frequent and common amongst homosexuals (which is why AIDS spread so quickly and frequently among them). Probably even the “long-term homosexual relationships” are rife with extraneous sexual encounters. More like a heterosexual “open marriage” (which is as much a contradiction in terms as “gay marriage”) than real marriage.

    We can be sure that whatever God makes, Satan tries to counterfeit.

  5. GCMWatch, perhaps we should also debate “safe sex” versus “unprotected sex” between a couple that “love” each other… Planning to get married some day 😕 .

    You know, before this homosexual movement, I don’t know if any group of fornicators ever tried so blatantly to abuse scripture to condone what clearly is immoral.

  6. Independent Conservative, your bias is very visible. You are why gay people run the opposite direction from the church. Just love perpetutating anti-gay rheotoric huh “independent”?

    Job well done , you certainly are personfiying the Love Ethic mandated in the bible!

  7. Tony, we really try to encourage theological discussion on this site, but I notice that you inject your opinion most of the time with no references to scripture. If you want to continue commenting here, I would suggest you make an attempt to comment with that in mind.

  8. Thank you GCM for pointing me in the right direction. Again, I am rather new to blogging. Please recategorize this posting if its out over order Sirs. I will submit the danger of LIVING OUTSIDE the mandate of God to LOVE from a biblically qualified position.

    – Romans 13:10 – Love worketh no ill against its neighbor.
    Love is the most significant Ethic in the bible, Withouth love in fact, we are bankcrupt.

    – 1 Corinithians13:13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
    More than faith, more than hope, LOVE is the greatest.

    As a samesex attracted male, suggesting to me that which is completely contrary to my own truth-oriented identification, does not abound in the love of God, and is pointedly harmful to my being. I assure you I did not choose to be gay. With that inmind, to suggest that I should “voluntarily” change my sexual orientation is ridiculous as I can not. Just as a heterosexual man will not wake up tommorow and say you know what, I wanna go have wild sex with a man — practically speaking it will not happen.

    The very term HOMOSEXUAL inplies a same sex attraction. People need to understand this CLEARLY. We have no choice in our ‘natural’ attraction to the same sex. I want to be particularly clear here. Perhaps we are cursed lol, but the reality is we are authentically same sex attracted.

    With respect I ask, why is it so hard to conceive that we are not pretending to be gay but rather, are Authentically being ourselves. Does God not require my HONESTY? Arent the thoughts and ways of God HIGHER than my own? Of course.

    This is the primise I use to approach sin as a whole. I must then bow my will to the will of God, I must conclude that the eye of God can see right through my soul, I must conclude that God, the ancient of days and all of his ways are beyond mine. Having further laid out the foundation for my understanding, would it not be in my spiritual best interest to keep it completely real before my God? Fulling knowing I can not deceive him in ANY circumstances?

    Sure, I’m a very masculine brutha, I can go out and pretend to be into black women, infact many women hit on me consistently, but I will not play games with their lives by faking deliverance. That would be dishonest. — GCM I can not do that!

  9. Tony, why fake deliverance when you can have it for real. Why get synthetic diamond and pretend its a real one?

    I dont understand your logic or why you would settle living beneath the privelege of God’s freedom which he gives to every person who repents. Deliverance from God is real because Jesus said ” he whom the Son sets free is free indeed”. Do you believe what Jesus said or is that just faking it?

    You are creating a false system of morality by claiming your “honesty” supercedes God’s command to repent of sin. If a murderer confesses to killing someone, that confession in no exonerates him nor does the “honesty” mean he can continue killing. Sin requires restitution. In this case, Christ paid the price for you and you have to acknowledge your sin and belive that Christ was the price for it. Only the can you be saved. Reference Romans 10.

    True honesty would be I am a sinner and I dont want to give up my sins to serve Christ. That’s honesty.

  10. The question: is the “hetero vs homo” debate a valid one (or even necessary one) for a Christian? Why or why not?

    No. It’s not valid nor necessary. This is why.

    First. The book of Leviticus informs us that whenever improper (sinful) sexual relations occur, there was need for a sin offering (sacrificed animal) to cleanse them of their immorality. The ONLY sexual activity that required just washing afterward (for cleanliness purposes) was when the sexual activity between husband (one man) and wife (one woman) occurred. No sin offering (sacrificed animal) was necessary because the marriage bed is pure (holy) and undefiled due to God’s covenant for this relationship. This is just not so for any other type of sexual behavior or bond.

    Second, just as D.L. pointed out:

    That’s why Rev.Tittle is wrong. Gay couples who tout their relational longevity (against heterosexuality) mean little when you look at it from a righteous standpoint. There are people who do wrong things for years, but longevity never sanctifies sin.

    The holiness factor is missing from Rev. Tittle’s claim! I glanced through the article, and I did not see one mention of God’s call for His people towards holiness.

    “Be holy, because I am holy” (Leviticus 11:44-45), is the theme of Leviticus. It is an important theme throughout the Word of God.

    Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches.

    Holiness is perfection. As believers in Christ, we are to strive for holiness in our lives.

    Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

    It is true that we will not be perfectly holy until we meet Jesus in heaven. However, holiness is our Christian destiny. We are to be “holy to the LORD.” Since that is what we will be one day and since “without holiness no one will see the Lord” (Hebrews 12:14), we must strive to be holy now.

    The Bible emphasizes holiness because a lack of holiness is what accounts for our inability to love rightly and do anything else rightly, for that matter. The reason that so many “love” relationships are so screwed up is because our relationship to God and others are not what they should be and need to be.

    I don’t see advocates of the gay “christian” movement ever talk about holiness – at least not genuine holiness as discussed in the Bible. People can claim all day long that their “relationship” is holy. However, if it is not sanctioned (nor sanctified through covenant) by God as revealed in the Scriptures, then they are guilty of adding to the Bible!

    D.L., I must tell you how extremely important your ministry here on this blog really is! People who only “see with their reprobate eyes” and do not “hear what the Spirit is telling the churches” are in danger of being deceived into thinking they are saved when they are not! That means that they could miss heaven. That means that they will not be recognized as one of His own! When the sheep and the goats are separated, they will be told to go away because they have not believed in the real Jesus! Jesus will tell them, “I know you not.” (See Matthew 25:1-12)

    Look at 1 John 3:2-3
    1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
    1Jo 3:3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

    More evidence that we are to strive to be holy!

    Read the entire chapter of 1 John 3. In it, we discover who the true brothers in Christ are. They are people like D.L., who is not afraid to tell homosexuals what they need to hear; rather than a “Rev.” like Tittle who just cares about “tickling their ears” and telling them what they want to hear.

  11. I think it’s a false argument–a red herring–because the real point is whether a person has a living born-again saving relationship with God through Jesus’ sacrificial life, death and resurrection. Anyone who does not is really in the same “category,” namely, an unsaved person for whom Jesus also died and to whom God still calls. Any particulars about lifestyle or behaviors should be moot. Gay is the same as Mormon, or soccer mom, drunk or thief or promiscuous woman, or CEO. As a Christian, I want to boast about God and His wildly expansive gift of Himself to everyone. If I take a stance “against” homosexualtiy, it’s too easy to then be “against” homosexuals as a class or a group. That is dangerous from an evangelical perspective. Approve of the behavior or not, these are individual people who may very well need to hear the gospel as Jesus spoke it, from hearts and mouths filled with His love and grace. “Follow Me,” He said, and men dropped their nets, women left their profession, friends brought their neighbors. The call is the same today! Seek and you shall find. Ask and it shall be given. Knock and the door shall be opened unto you. Matt 7.7 The kingdom of God is at hand…let’s pass it on.

  12. Tony, allow me to show you how the Apostle Paul put the love he mentioned in action in the House of God.

    1 Corinthians 5:11-13 (New American Standard Bible)

    11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler–not even to eat with such a one.

    12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?

    13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

    You can find the TRUTH about “attraction” in Romans 1.

    Now here’s the deal, if you were WILLING to understand that same sex attraction and intimate relations with anyone other than a female who is your wife is immoral and evil, we could communicate. But you’re rejecting the truth. You’re trying to lie as if God wants you to do something that is evil and trying to gloss it over with the claim you were “born that way”.

    Well Tony, my flesh would take its fill of women if not for God’s grace. So rather than running around with as many women as I can get my hands on as MY FLESH WAS BORN DESIRING TO DO, I stay with my wife, as God commands.

    There is no wiggle room on this for ME OR YOU TONY. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11.

    And:
    Ephesians 4:17-24 (New American Standard Bible)

    17 So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,

    18 being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;

    19 and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.

    20 But you did not learn Christ in this way,

    21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,

    22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,

    23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,

    24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

    Either we accept that God commands we do things His way, marriage to someone of the opposite sex and with them ONLY or it’s out of order. Read Ephesians 5 in full Tony, the very next chapter following the chapter with verses I’ve cited for you above. While you continue endorsing out of order activity as if God wants it of you, you are NO BROTHER OF MINE. And the Word of God commands you be excommunicated, see the first scripture I cited in this comment.

    You are not someone simply doing a sin and not aware. You were shown the truth and rejected it for a lie. Obviously coming here in contention against saints of God on a regular basis and against the truth, against the church, against the body of Christ, against the truth of our High Priest and His Word! You make God a lie and promote a false christ that approves of immorality.

    Hebrews 10:26-31 (New American Standard Bible)

    26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

    27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

    28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

    29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

    30 For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY ” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.”

    31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    Tony, give up telling us about your FLESH and call on the Name of Lord Jesus in truth. If you are able. If any grace has been granted you to desire to walk in truth.

  13. Love and Sex are 2 different things. Sex outside of marriage is wrong whether “gay” or “straight” This is where I think we are confused. Nevertheless just as any sinner God loves us as we are, but too much to let us stay that way. We are all born in sin and shaped in iniquities and whether or not we act on that is up to us. We are all tempted but are commanded to SIN NOT!! However God never ordained same sex marriages. Mark 10:6-9, “in the beginning they were male and female” this is God’s model not ours. God’s opinion of same sex “unions” was made clear when he destroyed all of Sodom and Gomorrah. We are to love the sinner but hate the sin.

  14. GCM Wrote:
    You are creating a false system of morality by claiming your “honesty” supercedes God’s command to repent of sin. If a murderer confesses to killing someone, that confession in no exonerates him nor does the “honesty” mean he can continue killing. Sin requires restitution. In this case, Christ paid the price for you and you have to acknowledge your sin and belive that Christ was the price for it. Only the can you be saved. Reference Romans 10.

    Tony Responds:
    I do not deny the sovreingty of God at all GCM,nor would I pretend that sin is wrong. I just dont think being authentically myself is a sin (yes I dont think being gay is sinful) How could it be? If I did not choose it (I am abundanty clear on this posiition sir). I cannot fathom God creating me knowing I would be gay and then Damming me? Jeremiah 29:11 speaks to the providential nature of God. How he plans to propser me and not to harm me to give me an exicted hope and a future. The scripture goes on to suggest how one finds God.. By seeking with ALL of there heart. I’ve prayed for ‘deliverance’ but to no avail. And please dont suggest I wasn’t sincere enough, or fasting enough, as we’ve addressed that in my last post ( I acknowledge God is bigger than me). People keep saying repent of the sin of homosexality GCM, but my issue with this is how can my natural samesex attraction be a sin? *this is fundamentally were* we have a significant disagreement. To suggest that God would allow me to be Born gay only for me to have to struggle all of my life to undue it (through societal banishment, alchohol,self hate) to be redeemed? why bother putting me throug all of that? I mean no disrespect AT ALL. but it seems small and petty for god to want to put me through a living hell (on earth) which would seem to Contradict whole heartedly the spiritual psychology behind Jeremiah 29:11 and John 10:10

    Thanks GCM, I welcome further clarification

  15. correction in the first part of my response GCM.. I meant to say ” Nor would I pretend that sin is not wrong”

  16. I’m a simple farm boy and my farm boy common sense tells me that regardless of sexual preference, race, color or the the kind of car we drive; we should subscribe to “DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU.”

  17. Tony,

    True love is action. “God so loved the world that He gave….” It involved the biggest Sacrifice that could have been made, in order for God to love sinful man. So, yes IC is actually showing the love ethic of the Bible — by telling you of your sin so that you may repent of it. I do not show my sons that I love them by allowing them to run into the street, do I? No, I show them I love them by pointing out the error of their way, so that they may live. Same thing here.

    You are wanting us to “love and accept homosexuals” — which apparently means that we are to turn a blind eye to all the negative things that the Bible has to say about homosexual behavior. You pull out the “this is the way I was born” card, as your reasoning behind not fighting to put aside your sinful behavior. Well, news flash! I was born sinful, too, but the Bible nowhere sugarcoats any sin, or says that any sin is allowable, simply because we were born sinful.

    Let me put it to you this way — my husband was sexually active prior to becoming a Christian. Although he was raised in a nominally Christian home, he was not brought up the way Christian parents are to bring up their children, and he fell into a lot of different sins — sexual sins being one of them. Not homosexual behavior or thoughts, but plenty of lustful heterosexual thoughts and actions. Those are absolutely condemned in many parts of the Bible, just as is homosexual thoughts and actions. (If it is wrong for a man to lust after a woman to whom he is not married, although marriage is given of God, and “the bed undefiled”; how much more is it wrong for a man to lust after a man, when the Bible never speaks of that sexual action or relationship in any good way?) He has struggled ever since his conversion with these same sins of lust, although it is not overt. Should he just throw up his hands and say, “Oh, well, that’s just the way God made me!” I understand that you are authentically attracted to other men. But you need to understand that the Bible calls that a sin. My husband has to make great effort in not thinking lustful thoughts. He got into a habit of many years of letting his thoughts go unbridled. But it is clear from the Bible that it is not good or healthy, nor is it Christian, for him to continue in that.

    A book that he got, that may help you, is called “Every Man’s Battle,” by Steve Arterburn and Fred Stoeker. Although it is geared towards heterosexual lust, you could easily apply it to homosexual lust as well, by changing most of the pronouns from “she” to “he,” and a few other similar changes.

    One thing is incontrovertible, and that is that the Bible regards the only proper sexual outlet to be with one’s spouse; and the only proper spouse is someone of the opposite sex. Just because you have a tremendous difficulty in overcoming this sin does not mean that it is not a sin, nor that it is “just the way God made you.” To pawn it off like that, is to make the same mistake Adam made when God called him to task over his sin — he said, “The woman YOU GAVE ME gave me the fruit, and I ate” — subtly implying that it was really God’s fault all along. This is exactly what you are doing. And I, along with all other Christians who know and understand the Bible, call on you to accept God’s word for what it is, and name your sin for what it is, and stop blaming God for your sin.

  18. The eternal love displayed among the Father, Son, and Spirit for one another is the highest of heights for love.

    Unshakeable love is not that which forged out of human discrimination and opposition. We waver and waffle all the time in our sentiments and emotions and selfish, prideful lusts. The true gift is the divine love placed in the human heart by the Triune God for Him and one another.

  19. Big Ralph your over simplification is thoroughly humorous and as such ignored.

    I enter this forum to engage truthfully not to deal with “Big Ralhs” continual ignorance.

    As for Kathy, thank you for your reasoned response. I appreciate the time you took. I still am confused as to why you would think that God would allow me to be created ” inferior” by way of a immoral sexual identification? Modern psychology contends that sexually is determined very, very young. Perhaps, before an individual is capable of lust. I just find it exceptionally confusing that I would be so disordered. Then to suggest that all I’ve known” is sin”, is very aggrivating. As for blaming God for my samesex attractiveness? I never directly even conceived of a need to place blame.

    Again, the issue of being gay as early as I can imagine, then trevailing through life to ‘undue’ sexual immorality seems to not be non-sensical.

    I submit the following Scriptual basis that leads me to not understand why God would even bother allowing me to come into existence in such a blatantly flawwed, and disordered fashion. verses 15-16 have a particular significance as they speak to a foreknowledge of my being before my physical earthly manifestation.

    PSLAMS 139:13-18
    13 For You formed my inward parts;
    You covered me in my mother’s womb.
    14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;[a]
    Marvelous are Your works,
    And that my soul knows very well.
    15 My frame was not hidden from You,
    When I was made in secret,
    And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
    16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
    And in Your book they all were written,
    The days fashioned for me,
    When as yet there were none of them.

    17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
    How great is the sum of them!
    18 If I should count them, they would be more in number than the sand;
    When I awake, I am still with You.

    GCMW: Tony, come on now. This is good, but the word gay isnt even mentioned here. Are you aware that the scriptures are not to be explained in light of personal reasoning or psychological findings? Im starting to see that homosexuality isnt really that big of a problem in you life as is your rather fragile and immature understanding of scripture. Dont take that offensively, but your explanations really sound like someone who is reading the Bible for the first time. The Ethiopian eunuch perhaps?

  20. Independent Conservative, your over the top. My point in comnig here to engage in honest conversation about something that is more applicable to me than you given that im gay. Your condemming me to hell for asking honest questions is what am accustomed to from the mainstream church. Nonetheless, I will not be retaliatory. I will hoever request that you ignore my future post if you continue in your desire to persecure and damm me to hell for honestly asking questions.

  21. Well Tony thank you for being honest about what you believe. I certainly dont condemn you for it 🙂
    Having said that I and no one else on this forum can excuse our sinful natures, actions or thoughts in any context. My question is why do you qualify for an exemption. Isnt that pretty arrogant considering all that Christ endured to give you true freedom from the power of sin?

    Now, you are right, there is a fundamental break in our otherwise agreeable discussion and that is that you do not see homosexuality as sin.

    You have no real contention with me, only God. It was God who established the boundaries of sexual conduct. Man cannnot establish his own moral code of conduct and still claim to be in relationship with God. I realize that people do it, but according to scripture it isnt valid.

    Jeremiah 29:11 is an awesome scripture. Thanks for bringing it into the conversation. As you said it reveals the depth of God’s wise sovereignty . But you read something into that isnt there. That is that if God wanted you to do something he would stop you. Thus, you conclude that since you are same sex attracted it is due to the will (or sovereignty) of God.

    But the passage doesnt lead one to that conclusion. Speaking of leading it tells us that God will direct us to a place of destiny. His thoughts and plans are to bring us to that place. The big picture of Jeremiah 29:11 is of course eternity with him. But there is a “now” implication in that it tells us God also has a plan for us on earth. His sovereignty is his omniscience. To wit, he knows the WAY we should go to fulfill his plan for us. I cant see how anyone could come to another conclusion unless they overlaid it with a personal opinion.

  22. Tony,

    Your convicted by you own quoting of scripture. Lets dissect this.

    For You formed my inward parts;
    You covered me in my mother’s womb

    Yes! God did form our inward parts. Each having a specific design and use. It is quite obvious what our sexual parts were made for. It’s quite obvious what our digestive system was made for especially the tail end. A mothers womb? You mean the harbinger of life that was made for carrying a baby produced by Male sperm and a Woman’s egg?

    I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
    Marvelous are Your works,
    And that my soul knows very well.

    Yes! Your souls does know all too well the marvelous works and yes you were wonderfully made. However, like the above text God produced each of our parts foe a specific purpose.

    Kyle

  23. @ Tony,
    Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
    And in sin my mother conceived me.

    The battle is and always has been against the flesh (the worldly), which brings forth death. We must live in the spirit of Christ. I pray one day you realize such no matter what you “believe” is right in the eyes of God – your sexual attractions included.

  24. This morning, several thoughts came to my mind regarding this issue. The opinion presented by this pro-gay “reverend” Tittle ignores God’s Word on the subjects of both the sin of homosexual behavior, as well as the covenant and sanctity of God-ordained, one man cleaving to one woman marriage.

    Both of Tittle’s errors appear to be similar to the temptation that Satan used to lure Eve to disobey God. “Did God really say….”

  25. “Yes! God did form our inward parts. Each having a specific design and use. It is quite obvious what our sexual parts were made for. It’s quite obvious what our digestive system was made for especially the tail end. A mothers womb? You mean the harbinger of life that was made for carrying a baby produced by Male sperm and a Woman’s egg?”

    So people that are infertile are hated by God, right? Couples that can’t have children don’t deserve to be having sex because they’re not fulfilling God’s plan? Couples who don’t want to have children or choose to adopt instead are violating the natural order? Sheesh.

    Oh, and regarding the “tail end,” which you seem to believe is only intended for evacuation…Explain to me why “God” would put thousands of nerve endings there designed to transmit and experience pleasure when stimulated? Why would he put an asexual organ in extraordinarily close proximity to the most sexual of organs? If you do your research, you’ll find that the pubic floor muscles are all interconnected, and the pleasurable sensations experienced by stimulation of any of the “private parts” can be felt throughout the entire area. It’s not for everyone, sure, but to discount the sexual function of this particular organ is just turning a blind eye to anatomy. It has nerve endings for a reason, and it feels good for a reason.

    I also feel the need to discredit your “one use” myth. If the v****a and p***s have multiple uses (which they do: urination for both, menstruation, intercourse, and birth canal for women), why can’t the “tail end”? Oh right, because you don’t WANT it to. Sorry, wrong again folks.

    I’m not trying to say that everyone SHOULD explore the back door. Nobody should do something that they’re not comfortable with. All I’m saying your theory that it’s an asexual organ and that messing with it is “unnatural” (and therefore evil, apparently) holds no water.

    Oh, I know. Science, facts, modern medicine. Ahhhhhh! It’s all so scary! Face it – you’re all just afraid out of sheer intolerance and you conveniently hide behind the bible in an attempt to make it seem like you’re not really just an ignorant bigot. It’s not working.

    Gay and lesbian people are 4-7 times more likely to attempt suicide than heterosexuals. You people are part of the reason why. Drop the hate, drop the ignorance, and live and let live.

    GCMW: Im allowing this comment to demonstrate exactly why Christians should not get into debates about whether heterosexuality is better homosexuality. This is what it will invariably deteriorate to. In fairness, Kyle, you started this. After this comment, any other with simular arguments will be deleted.

  26. Tittle doesn’t mention God or Jesus Christ in his article, either. When he signs off “keep the faith,” one is left to wonder in whom or what?

  27. Tony said:

    Independent Conservative, your over the top. My point in comnig here to engage in honest conversation about something that is more applicable to me than you given that im gay. Your condemming me to hell for asking honest questions is what am accustomed to from the mainstream church. Nonetheless, I will not be retaliatory. I will hoever request that you ignore my future post if you continue in your desire to persecure and damm me to hell for honestly asking questions.

    Now everyone, this is the problem with Tony. He feels that he’s “special”. That he’s somehow “different”. That because he’s claiming to be “gay” that his flesh desiring to sin is somehow all together different from ours and IT IS NOT.

    It is no different than if Tony wanted to sleep in threesomes and claim God desired it of him because he was “born that way”. If he claim that it was his “natural longing” for a relationship with 2 women. If he claimed that polygamy was OK. It’s all the same lust of the flesh and to claim God approves is to make God a liar.

    It does not matter that this is about “gay” any more than if this blog were “Polygamy Christian Movement Watch” or “Fornicating Christian Movement Watch” (and this blog really is the later). It’s sin of the flesh. And while everyone here is in flesh and flesh has cravings for sin, in our MIND/SPIRIT we are NOT to think as if what our flesh desires is God approved. It is not. We at the very least have to recognize that we are saved from SIN by grace through faith on the Lord Jesus and are to strive to avoid SIN and know that God is not for IMMORAL SEXUAL ACTIVITY.

    Acts 15:28-29 (New American Standard Bible)

    28 “For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials:

    29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.”

    It gets no more basic than that for someone who claims to be a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ. If you claim God is for you giving honor to idols, if you claim God is for you eating blood and/or things strangled which causes blood to remain retained in the flesh, if you claim God is for you engaging in ANY form of fornication/sexual immorality, you are speaking of a FALSE GOD. Those 4 basics were 4 customs that were taking place in the Gentile world and the Apostles of the Lord Jesus said TURN AWAY FROM THOSE THINGS IF YOU CLAIM TO FOLLOW JESUS.

    I’m not saying Tony has a stamped ticket to hell that will only be done away with by repentance based on his fleshly urges. Again, I’m not saying Tony is bound for hell because he has “feelings” that are homosexual in nature. I’M SAYING TONY IS BOUND FOR HELL IF HE DOES NOT REPENT TO THE LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE DENIES THE TRUTH THAT HAS BEEN GIVEN TO HIM AND CLAIMS A FALSE GOD OF HOMOSEXUALITY, PLACING HIS FLESH ABOVE GOD. FALSELY CLAIMING THAT GOD APPROVES OF SINFUL BEHAVIOR, WHEN THE LORD JESUS WENT TO THE CROSS TO SAVE THOSE WHO BELIEVE FROM THEIR SINS.

    Tony’s real issue is NOT that he has fleshly urges, his issue is that he seeks to claim God approves of him indulging those urges.

    It is one thing to sin and quite another to claim God approves of our sin. To claim God approves is apostasy and promotion of a FALSE GOD.

    I admonish all, don’t avoid speaking to truth to Tony or anyone else promoting a false gospel. If any such person shows up in your assembly, tell your elders that person MUST be excommunicated if they don’t turn from claiming God approves of sinful behaviors.

    1 Corinthians 5:11-13 (New American Standard Bible)

    11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler–not even to eat with such a one.

    12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?

    13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

    Do not even meet Tony for lunch!

  28. IC, thanks that really sums it up quite well. Tony isnt going to hell (and we certainly dont want him to go) if he repents. That is always an open door, but is his choice alone. And not just tony, but any one of us with sin in our lives. If you do not repent and ask God’s forgiveness, you will be lost.

    Christine thanks for your remarks noting that Rev Tittle’s remarks are very, very close in resemblance to the serpent’s lie in the garden.

  29. Honesty as opposed to Repentance. Biblical repentence is agreeing with what the Word of GOD has to say about our sinful condition. That is explicit in the greek word used in the epistle of John. “If we confess our sins, GOD is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” Repentence is more than being sorry for sin. It is agreeing with GOD’s definition of what is sin and our sinful behavior. It is also being willing to conform behavior to what He says is righteous. Honesty is a by-product of righteousness from GOD’s perspective; HIs view of what holiness and righteousness is. Our hearts (understanding) and the tendency to modify our thinking to suit our desires is why we must believe what the scriptures has to say.

  30. As I continue in this dialogue with the rational bloggers on here (GCM, Elder Jimmy, Kathy ) Please understand the following questions I ask because I realy am trying to understand an opposing viewpoint. Particularly since my eternal life (may be/ is) at stake.

    Let me make sure im understanding the supositions of many here?

    Your suggesting that my samesex attraction or ‘gayness’ is an intentional ‘cross to bear’ given to my by God? that I might trevail in life as gay to overcome it and become heterosexual? Is my undertanding accurate GCM, Kyle, Eld. Jimmy?

    Secondly what I do not understand is if I am totally gay and not attracted to women in the least beat, does this mean I am cursed from birth?

    Thanks,
    Tony

  31. Tony,

    It seems that your problem is that you have your ideas about how God made you, and we shouldn’t bother “confusing you with the facts.” You assert that God created you homosexual. How do you justify that Scripturally, in light of all the passages that deal with homosexual behavior. Even though it will make this post very long, I will quote several here, so that no one will even have to look them up (although you’re welcome to, to make sure that there isn’t an error here):

    Lev. 18:22, “You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.”

    Lev. 20:13, “If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them”

    1 Cor. 6:9-10, “Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

    Rom. 1:26-28, “For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper.”

    How, in light of these plain Scriptures, can you say that God created you with this natural and unchangeable propensity? You assert that God created you gay, using that beautiful Psalm which speaks of the creation of a baby within a woman’s womb, as your “proof text.” Yet you even quoted this part of the Psalm: “How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!” ARE God’s thoughts precious to you, Tony? ALL of them? Even the aforementioned verses which clearly call homosexual behavior “an abomination,” a “detestable act,” and “unnatural”; and says clearly that those who commit these things will not inherit the kingdom? How can you possibly reconcile these two things?

    The problem is that you are so bound up in your sin that you don’t even see it AS sin, which is profoundly unfortunate.

    You say you were created that way. I say you were created sinful, yes, just like me and IC and GCMWatch and every other person on this blog and on the planet. That does not give any of us the right to give ourselves over to sin. “Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof,” Rom. 13:13-14.

  32. Tony, I just posted something that hasn’t even had a chance to appear yet, so may be repeating myself here, but I will answer your questions to the best of my ability, Biblically.

    To answer your last question first, I do not believe that people are “born gay.” What happens to them that causes them to tend toward that behavior and lifestyle is perhaps not well understood. I’ve heard (and it makes very good sense to me) that many and perhaps most homosexuals (male and female) were sexually abused or molested when they were very young, or had (shall we say) family difficulties (for instance, an overbearing mother with an absent or distance father, thus giving the young boy a curiosity about men and males that was not satisfied, and grew to… obsession? … which manifested itself in attraction). So that while this tendency or attraction may seem to be from birth, it actually is not; it is not genetic or inborn.

    I would not say that your “same sex attraction or ‘gayness’ is an intentional ‘cross to bear’ given you by God” — or at least, no more than a heterosexual male’s propensity to lust after females is “an intentional cross to bear given by God.” Will there be a time that you don’t have thoughts of lust towards men? I can’t say. I will say that I don’t underestimate the amount of prayer and devotion to God and reading His Word that it will take to overcome this sin.

    Listen, I’m harping on homosexual activity because that’s the subject under discussion, but I am in no way minimizing other sins. It’s easy for me to ignore or pass over my sins, because they’re different from your sins. But I don’t want to fall into the “comparing ourselves with ourselves” trap, which 2 Cor. 10:12 says “is not wise.” I’m no better than you. I’m not really that much different from you. So, I’m not comparing you to me. But I am comparing what you say and what you do with God’s Word — and urge you to do the same.

    Is my goal for you to be sexually attracted towards women? No. Might you never feel attraction towards women? Yes. Might you always struggle with same-sex attraction? Yes. Might you completely overcome this? YES!! Will it take a lot of work? A thousand times “yes.” But God’s grace is sufficient for you. In picturing the journey that lies ahead of you, I can foresee great and tremendous difficulties. Satan has gotten you to buy a pack of lies, and he will not let go of you very easily. You have the habit of years to contend with, as well. But God’s grace is sufficient for you.

    Please read what the Bible says about homosexual behavior and those who engage in it. I don’t see how you can possibly justify it, or not view it as sin. Then, when you are ready to take the next step, the best book I can recommend (although to be honest, it’s the only one I’ve read that even approaches this subject) is “Every Man’s Battle.” I don’t view homosexual lust any differently from heterosexual lust, except for the object. The tools in EMB will be able to help you as you apply them prayerfully and with the help of God.

  33. GCMW Wrote:

    GCMW: Tony, come on now. This is good, but the word gay isnt even mentioned here. Are you aware that the scriptures are not to be explained in light of personal reasoning or psychological findings? Im starting to see that homosexuality isnt really that big of a problem in you life as is your rather fragile and immature understanding of scripture. Dont take that offensively, but your explanations really sound like someone who is reading the Bible for the first time. The Ethiopian eunuch perhaps?

    Tony Replies: I never pretended to be as scholarly as so many of you on this site, GCMW, which is why im here seeking questions from you in the ‘lions den’ , lol. Having said that, yes the aformentioned scripture doesn’t mentioned gay, but verse 16 mentions the word substance. Substance means more than my physiological make up, but also my mental, and spiritual consciousness. Essentially, substance speaks of “What of made of – Mind,Body, and Soul”. Verse 16 and the aformentioned versus speak to again to a foreknowledge of the entirety of my being, which I submit includes my sexuality — God knew it Before hand, according to my analysis of this scripture. Which is my significant delimma, why not abort the proccess in the beggining? I’d rather he did that than be gay.

    Please dont be upset and lash out with imature name-calling GCMW, as I have taken my example from your [previous] lead ( responding rationally with no need for name-calling).

  34. @ Tony,
    Why did you get the idea that being “gay” was a birth right – or some special cross you as a human being, the affection of God’s eye, have to bear that the rest of the saints (believers) do not? – If I have understood you correctly.

    Again – Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
    And in sin my mother conceived me.

    Every saint (believer) must confront evil and sin (internally and externally) – it has a purpose, way beyond our own “freedom” to choose – it draws us closer to God – which in fact is truth. We can’t do it without Him, and His grace. No one’s sexual feelings trump truth – God’s word. You are not special, nor is your sin – you are made in the image of God, have no doubt about that truth. You WILL discover His truth, His law, His word, are soley for your (and all peoples) benefit, for now and eternity.

    Don’t buy into the false theology that you are your own authority – it is in direct conflict with reality and God’s word. God premits our struggles – Evil is not a “being” – it is in fact the absence of God (truth). Your not “gay” – you’re not special, you’re not God’s enemy until you reject His way for that of the world’s. I believe that is indeed the battle – Paul speaks of in Romans.

    God’s foreknowledge has nothing to do with any one rejecting Him – never has, never will. Your “feelings” have nothing to do with God’s truth or His control and purposes. The best world is yet to come – otherwise God would not have had (created) that tree in the garden, eh? Now does indeed matter!

  35. Hello Tony,

    You know you may be right that refraining from sexual activity outside of the boundaries of scripture is a “Cross to bear”. I hear the echoes of Christ’s words in your own; “If any many would follow me he must take up his cross, deny himself and follow..” Contrary to popular but misguded Christian thought one’s cross is not something that comes upon you or happens to you but is rather that which you voluntarily assume in accordance to the will of the Almighty, All knowing and All Wise GOD. Jesus took his cross voluntarily and assumed the life of a servant (despite being GOd in the flesh). Theologically this is called ; “leaving His divine perogative to become associated with the human experience. He entreats us to become associated to His divine nature by the same means; a voluntary taking up of a cross in order to become a true follower of Christ. This saying was a hard saying of Christ because of the horrific reality of what the cross meant in the day and time in which Jesus said them. HIS listeners were well aquainted with the deathly implications of his words. They had seen and heard the graphic details of crucifixion.
    All of us who must refrain from sexual activity must also assume this cross in order to follow HIM. Single women who are in ther 30’s 40’s and 50’s by the millions in churches must, men in all age groups and situations must also, curious teens and homosexuals must also obey the scriptures.
    The way that leads to life is often looked upon by thse who are not looking for light as a bondage and an impossibility. The opposite road leads to destruction. But the signs on that road are full of deception. I promise to pray for you. There are many with you.

  36. Praise the Lord Pastor Foster!

    Tony,
    I have been observing the conversation.
    I am going to ask you the following questions and I will quote scriptures with each question.
    1. Do you believe the following, especially Verse 16?
    2 Timothy 3:15-17 KJV
    (15) And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
    (16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    (17) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

    Do you believe that any sex outside of LAWFUL marriage (male and female) is sin?
    1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJV
    (9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    (10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

    Now Verses 9 and 10 covers all sins, abominations for male, female, black or white–ALL!!! You can get a Strong’s Concordance or go to E-Sword.net and download the FREE online KJV with the Strong’s concordance and it will define every Hebrew word or Greek/NT word or phraseology!

    Now the CHOICE is YOURS!
    Do not harden your heart towards my brother Independent Conservative, IC is showing You TRUE LOVE by telling You to REPENT! Remember, the LORD JESUS CHRIST’s words, “Repent! For the Kingdom of GOD is at hand (NOW!) This means truly turn away from your sins, fully surrender your life to GOD and sincerely ask CHRIST to come in and HE will come in and give you NEW LIFE! GOD is able! It is according to YOUR Faith! HELP from ABOVE is available!

    Tony, you cannot argue or contend with the WORD of GOD!
    You do not have to stay in your state or condition–the past is past, Today is the Day for Salvation! I adjure you to do what is commanded by Paul in the rest of
    1 Corinthians 6:11-20
    (11) And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
    (12) All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. !!!!!!HELLO!!!!!!
    (13) Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
    (14) And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
    (15) Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.*****
    (16) What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
    (17) But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
    (18) Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.********************
    (19) What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
    (20) For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.

    Tony,
    If you WANT to be truly delivered, if you live in the Washington DC metro area, Pastor Foster can forward you my email address. I will gladly pray for you and with you! If you do not live in the DC area, I am confident others on this blog will welcome you in their locales to their fellowship for counsel and prayer.

    Make a decision for CHRIST! HE will help you if want to be FREE!
    Yours in Christ!

  37. Did anybody notice that although he made many comments, Tony never mentioned the name of Jesus a single time in any of his comments in this thread? That is interesting, given FAITH ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS THE ONLY means to salvation.

  38. I CORINTHIANS 6:9-10

    Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate [malakoi], nor homosexual offenders [arsenokoites], nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

    So let it be said, “they have ears and cannot hear, they have eyes and cannot see!!!!”

  39. Tony,

    If you’re still here on the blog, I just wanted to let you know that although what I said was strong, I did not intend it to be in a negatively judgmental way. There is a way in which Christians are to judge — that is, we are to discern good from evil, right from wrong. If the Bible says that something is wrong (such as stealing), then we Christians must say that stealing is wrong, and not worry about others who say we are being judgmental or forcing morality on others or whatever terms the world uses to try to limit Christianity and Christian influence.

    Big Ralph quoted 1 Cor. 6:9-10, but I would like to quote the verse which follows it, “And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.”

    Do not despair if right now you feel that it is impossible for you to change your homosexual behavior and attraction. From your previous posts, you seem to be a new Christian, or one “unskilled in the word” (Heb. 5:13). I was raised in a Christian home, church, and school; we had to memorize sections of the Bible and an untold number of verses in my 12 years of school. Verses pop easily into my mind, and I can quote or paraphrase a lot of verses. You may not be able to do that. The remedy, though, is to “search the Scriptures daily, to see if these things be so.”

    Your spirit indicates a right attitude — since you indicate a serious concern about your eternal life. You are right to be concerned, in light of 1 Cor. 6:9-10. If you continue in the homosexual lifestyle, I can only say that the Bible declares you to be among the unrighteous who will not inherit the kingdom of God. But I hope this is not the case. Because the next verse gives the antidote for this behavior — being washed in the blood of Jesus, and being sanctified by the Holy Spirit. There is no other way. But take heart, because God has given you a way out. And you are not alone in this struggle. Not only are there others like you, going through exactly what you’re going through; but God Himself is with you (if you are one of His), to guide you and help you through this.

    I’ll leave with this link, which is to an article about a man who left the homosexual lifestyle, after he came to the conclusion, “Homosexuality is death, and I choose life.” And if I can help you in any way, I will.

  40. Independent, nice try.. Its obvious. I acknowledge the sovreignty of Christ. He is Lord and there is no doubt about that. — I dont know what your point was, but It appears to be mute

  41. It appears somebody still desires to put their flesh before the commands of God.

    When I read Matthew 19, I don’t see my Lord, My Christ, My King, saying anything about a man joining with another man. It explicitly says a man joins with A WIFE. JESUS ONLY AFFIRMED MALE TO FEMALE MARRIAGE AS WAS FROM THE BEGINNING.

    Reprobates follow a false christ. Denying the words of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    (Anybody notice that somebody still never said Jesus? Oh but he’ll type it out now for show…)

    All homosexual behavior is sin.

  42. Not a valid consideration. “Homo love” is sin, so describing this love as stronger is moot. Stronger doesn’t negate the fact that it is sin.

  43. Camille, that is such a simple and logical conclusion. Strong has never meant right. Neither does longevity mean right. Right is right only because God says its right!

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