When Harry met Soulforce

It appears that Soulforce is angry about not getting their way  at Hope Christian Church, pastored by Bishop Harry Jackson. Jackson allowed them to come but set up a debate with food. Its ironic that Soulforce director is calling Jackson “deceptive” when Soulforce’s entire “family outing” has been marked by lies and deception. Jeff Lutes called Bishop Jackson an “interlocutor in the grip of misinformation so profound that they do not treat us with respect and integrity” but praised TD Jakes for his personal phone call and “bridge building.”

Of note: is Soulforce a gay christian organization? Bishop Jackson calls them “sinners”, not brothers who are sexually immoral. If they are not a Christian organization, why are they only targeting Christian churches? When are they planning to target mosques?

WHAT HAPPENED AT NEW BIRTH

In our monitoring visit to New Birth Missionary Baptist Church on Sunday June 1st, we discovered something perhaps unique to all the other mega church encounters with Soulforce. This was a battle of pr strategies. Prior to the 10:30 am service, I spoke with New Birth Senior Marketing/Communications Director William Turner who sounded more like a savvy marketing exec who knew how to spin the game than a brother in Christ concerned about what the church was facing in a spiritual sense.

When asked if there was a meeting planned, Turner said “you and I are having a meeting”, then recalled that he and Sylvia Rhue had a “breakfast turkey biscuit” together (which he said was a meeting), then used a Barack Obama analogy to support his relative theory  of what constitutes a meeting. Turner said that members of Soulforce would be out after service to talk to people and that we could also talk to them. He reinterated that Bishop Long probably would not be in any meetings and said they were following the Joel Osteen model.

Turner said he was not concerned about Soulforce spinning the visit to their advantage on its website. 

For some reason, New Birth’s media director Dan Renee tried to cast the Sunday event as bad blood between GCM Watch and Soulforce ( perhaps more pr positioning?). He told the Southern Voice “any issues between Soulforce and Foster were not New Birth’s concern because the church isn’t politically involved in their conflict.” Does New Birth view this as politics?

Between New Birth personnel and Soulforce  there seemed little difference in motives. Both eyed the Sunday encounter as a pr opportunity. Im not sure who won, but both sides certainly jockeyed for it. Although New Birth granted special parking and seats to Soulforce, a source told me they were seated well out of view of any cameras so they would not appear on any television broadcasts.

On a positive note, gospel music minister Darwin Hobbs led a very spirited worship service at New Birth.

 

 

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21 thoughts on “When Harry met Soulforce

  1. I am so proud of Bishop Jackson in calling them what they are….sinners, and that he didn’t back down at all in his stance. As for NB, I am ashamed and downright appalled at their meandering in trying to cover the “slip up” of misinformation. The entire ordeal has been poorly handled on their part and I cannot believe that ANY person from leadership would play on words to cover their behinds.

  2. If they are not a Christian organization, why aren’t they targeting only Christian churches? When are they planning to target mosques?

    I am thinking you mean why are.

    What makes this gentleman a bishop?

    GCMW: Thank you, that is what I meant. Its been corrected. I dont know who consecrated Jackson to bishop. Whoever did, the qualifications of a bishop are set in 1 Timothy 3

  3. I am thankful that brother Jackson had the courage, the integrity and the love to take a stand and tell the truth without fear or giving in to intimidation. Let us pray that others will follow his example.

  4. Neither Harry Jackson or Eddie Long handled this as scripture commands.

    1 Corinthians 5:11 (New American Standard Bible)

    11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler–not even to eat with such a one.

    That’s “not even to eat” as in no special dinners. No special parking or seating whether good of bad. Nothing but zero communication.

    And the special seating and parking also conflicts with James 2 if they were actually people who wanted to hear a message and not try and turn everyone to heresy.

    The homosexual called to the Lord Jesus at Jackson’s church had nothing to do with Soulforce. Which means Jackson didn’t have to meet with Soulforce to help that homosexual who came to repentance.

    None of these groups is handling Soulforce as scripture commands, none of them.

    And this will continue to give a level of legitimacy to the homosexuals who claim to be Christians, when they are not worthy of any communication AT ALL. And scripture commands not to communicate with them AT ALL.

  5. This was a battle of pr strategies. Prior to the 10:30 am service, I spoke with New Birth Senior Marketing/Communications Director William Turner who sounded more like a savvy marketing exec who knew how to spin the game than brother in Christ concerned about what the church was facing in a spiritual sense.

    Such a disappointment.

    While I have my personal issues with Club New Birth, Long and his ilk, I thought this would be a slam dunk – especially since Long publicly took a biblical stance against homosexuality.

    Remember in 2005 when Long said “we’re not just a church, we’re an international corporation”?

    Well, once again, it looks like the staff at CNB is more interested in emulating a “corporation” where Long is the “CEO” vs. a ministry where God is in charge – and His Word is the final authority.

    This would’ve been a great opportunity for CNB to stand on truth and remove any trace of doubt. Instead, it appears as though they were more interested in keeping the peace.

    Oh well, at least you had the courage to attempt to address the issue…

    Also, “special seating and parking”? What about the people who have to park a mile away and seat in the balconey (or overflow) week after week. Someone should tell them that if they claim special status, they just might get a little closer to the bishop 🙄

  6. That’s “not even to eat” as in no special dinners. No special parking or seating whether good of bad. Nothing but zero communication.

    IC, are you sure? Not even a small, harmless turkey breakfast biscuit at IHOP?

  7. I wouldn’t call a Mormon, a JW or a leader in the MCC “brother” or eat with them AS a brother. But I would eat a sandwich while debating them and expose them point for point for being the false prophets that they truly are.

    The particular command of 1 Cor. 5:11 is in the context of language for preparation or the passover in the removing the leaven (v. 7). In this case, preparation for the New Passover which is The Lord’s Supper or Communion in the church. Paul continues to deal with this issue in 1 Corinthians 10-11,

    But Paul specifically says “I did not mean that you are not associate with the immoral people of this world” (v. 10)

    I would not admit a Mormon to the Lord’s Table or the Agape Feast (Jude 12) for he has never been a brother. The same goes for any other cultist such as a member of the MCC.

    But if Mormons, JWs, and members of the MCC are of this world and not the church (which is why they have never gone through the Matthew 18: 15-17 or Titus 3:9-10 church discipline process) why would you not treat them as people of the world, call them out as the pagans that they are and refute their false teaching face to face?

    As I have said, I would not give a pulpit to a Mormon to freely spew his false doctrine or a person from Soulfarce. (2 John 1:10) But I would be more than willing to invite him into the arena so I could pounce on him like lion on a rat. And before doing so I might just fatten him up for the slaughter in giving him a sandwich.

    Jesus had no problem with eating with Pharisees in their house and rebuking them as a harlot anointed His feet. (Luke 7:36-50) Neither would I have a problem of refuting and rebuking an MCCer in public to his face while dining at his expense.

    Rather than withdrawing and retreating from the advances of the MCC and Soulfarce, we need to set our own agenda and go on the offense by taking ground in the advancement of the Kingdom and in doing so trample the gates of hell. (Matthew 16:18)

    But because Christians are cowardly and lazy we don’t even want to challenge or debate the JW who comes to our door but instead just slam the door in his face based on a misunderstanding of 1 Cor. 511. When they come to my house I invite them, offer them a glass if ice tea and reason with them from the Scriptures. You’d be surprised how many tell me, “You’re the first one who has ever taken the time to speak with us.”

    Not refuting the MCCer in public strengthens them as unwitting struggling Christians hear no alternative perspective on the Bible or see that these false prophets can’t fight their way out of a wet bag.

    Their tactics are fear and intimidation and if you back down you are only strengthening them as they turn as say, “See we’re winning!”

  8. Not even a slice of turkey. Not a single slice.

    Not even one of those deli cut thin slices.

    Anyone who claims to follow Jesus and is promoting heresy is not to be eaten with at all. Scripture is clear. Mormons, JWs and MCC all claim to follow Jesus, that makes them so-called brothers. The heresy of MCC is no different from the man sleeping with his father’s wife in 1 Cor 5 and acting like God approved of his actions. The admonishment in 1 Cor 5 has to be taken in FULL. The man was fully EXCOMMUNICATED from fellowship, totally. Not simply for a passover or communion. That person was not allowed back into fellowship till they fully repented and that is fully recorded in 2 Corinthians 2. Till they repented they were totally out and that is what scripture commands be done.

    Soulforce is not arriving on anyone’s doorstep not knowing what sound doctrine teaches. They heard and rejected it and have made it clear they refuse to repent.

    Paul didn’t have Hymenaeus and Alexander over for a meal and debate. He handed them over to Satan, 1 Timothy 1:20. The SAME EXACT THING we see in 1 Cor 5:5.

    A person who attempts to twist the Word of God is not addressed like someone who never heard the gospel. Those teaching a false gospel are to be totally ostracized, Galatians 1:8-9.

    Again and again God had Paul admonish against entertaining those who come as angels of light with false gospels, 2 Corinthians 11. 3 years in tears over this very thing, Acts 20:29-31.

    Jackson had them over for dinner and a game of 20 questions. He did not call them over to preach to them the truth from his own mouth, but instead had a planned back and forth of questions with them, to avoid them showing out on a corner in front of his building. It was totally a political play and now he’s smiling on the cameras of Pat Robertson’s news program. One politically minded fellow on the network of another politically minded fellow.

    I don’t mean to try and down the good Jackson does, but he took the political route of least resistance and made a good spin of it for interviews, when scripture commands he should not have put a slice of bread in their bellies unless they were starving and in need to eat.

    What Jackson did on Sunday morning was the right thing, to preach the Word in truth. What he did in having a special meal and debate session with Soulforce was at best a waste of time, not advised by the Word of God.

    Once upon a time in church history, if a heretic was unrepentant and even attempted to show up to a church meeting remaining unrepentant, they were immediately identified and removed. And I’m sure some of you who are students of church history know in many cases even worse than that was done to the heretic, but I’m not trying to approve of anything brutal. I’m saying you let a heretic know they are in heresy and have no more to do with them.

    Scripture affirms zero fellowship and the church of today would do well to uphold the standard.

  9. IC it looks like all of the churches have created an easy out for themselves, whatever that might be. In my opinion it really was to be expected.

    Some may be hung up on the thing with eating, but eating together (breaking bread) carries a strong biblical connotation of fellowship and thus agreement. It is deeply rooted in Bible symbolism and indeed it is one of the oldest and simplest forms of fellowship

    Says one writer:

    “Breaking bread” was an idiomatic phrase among the people of Israel. Indeed, it is an idiomatic phrase among a great many peoples of the world, both primitive and modern, both biblical and non-biblical. It is a phrase fraught with richness of meaning, both spiritually and culturally. Yet, at the same time, we must not overlook the reality that originally, and in its most common and frequent usage, it simply referred to people eating a meal. Any deeper significance to be associated with the partaking of food would come from the depth of relationship of the participants and the motivation underlying the meal itself.

    Thats one of the reasons soulforce wants to sit down and eat. And thats why the Bible forbids it with them.

  10. To be removed from the Lord’s Table IS excommunication (“ex-communion-cation”), But if you don’t practice the Lord’s Supper Biblically because you only have it monthly, quarterly or yearly you might miss the centrality of it as an essential element of the Lord’s Day as a Feast Day in apostolic worship. (Acts 2:42) The point is not that you cannot eat a mere common meal with someone who ahs been excommunicated, after all some spouses can be excommunicated while the other is still in good standing in the church and yet he/she is not required to abstain from eating with their excommunicated spouse. The “not eating” is at the Lord’s Table for to do so is to given an appearance of the approval of their sin and invite judgment (1 Cor. 11:27). Also, another Biblical practice which most churches do not follow is the agape feast (Jude 12) that accompanied the Lord’s Supper which is the context of Paul rebuking the Corinthians in chapter 11 for the rich oppressed the poor at these meals and the following Lord’s Supper was consequently being eaten in an unworthy manner (1 Cor. 11:21). But if your church does not follow this Biblical practice of the agape feast of the feasting of the brethren tied with the Lord’s Supper, then you miss the context of the “do not eat with one who calls himself a brother” in 1 Cor. 5:11.

    I will not eat with Mel White at the agape feast nor the Lord’s Supper . But if he and I are both at Taco Bell and he wants to debate the issue of homosexuality I am free to do so. If my wife has been excommunicated (say for unrepentant drunkenness) I will not eat with her at the agape feast or the Lord’s Supper. But I will eat with her at home and call her to repent of her sin.

    The entire background of Paul’s epistle to Corinth is the OT law. For example Chapters 5-6 are closely related to Lev.. 18 which address incest and men having sex with other men. His exhortation in chapter 10 is tied to the history and sin of the OT forefathers. The language of chapter 5 is that of preparation for the passover which Paul is working his way up to in chapters 10-11.

    If Mel White is eating at McDonalds and I am eating at McDonalds that is not a violation of 1 Cor. 5:11. If we’re both eating at MC’ D’s and we speak to each other that is not a violation of 1 Cor. 5:11. If I allow him into the church and treat him as a brother by allowing him to come to the Lord’s Table – THAT IS a violation of 1 Cor. 5:11.

    Challenging a JW at my door is NOT a violation of 2 John 10, but allowing him to teach or preach his message to my family or a church that meets in a house IS a violation of 2 John 10.

    Perhaps what I am advocating is not what Jackson did, the video clip is short and no other information is provided.

    What I see so often is a sort of simplistic proof-text approach that people like to use out of fear and false piety (I am not that that this is what you are doing) to avoid face-to-face confrontations with false prophets and teachers.

    Both Jesus and the apostles had no problem challenging false teachers publicly.

  11. Rik Fleming, when did an Apostle of the Lord Jesus go have any meal with someone who was continually and openly false teaching? Someone who had heard the truth, rejected it and kept on false teaching.

    Sure Christians will talk a time or two with someone when initially discovering they promote error, to try and give them the truth, but a group like Soulforce is well beyond that already. Soulforce is now the unrepentant false teacher that continues promoting false teaching well after knowing and rejecting sound doctrine, rejecting sound doctrine continually.

    You’ve got a view of 1 Cor. 5 that asserts “we can eat here, but we can’t eat there”. I totally disagree. If you already know the person/group has totally reprobate intentions and called you so they could promote their reprobate views, the Christian has no business continually engaging them for “debate”. Or do you disagree with the following?

    Titus 3:9-11 (New American Standard Bible)

    9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

    10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning,

    11 knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.

    Can you can please show me where after Paul delivered Hymenaeus and Alexander to Satan he went to have a meal with them outside of a church meeting?

  12. And Rik Fleming, regarding a JW coming to your door. We agree there, given I never met the JW before they came to my door. So I don’t know they might refuse sound doctrine if presented it. In such a case that is the first and possibly 2nd warning in those discussions. After which scripture affirms any continued “debate” is totally worthless.

    With Soulforce, those figures involved in this “Family outing” are well known, unlike the JW who comes to your door that you never knew before.

  13. Thanks IC and Rik for your POVs. I think that they both carry validity with them in certain aspects. 🙂

    1. We cannot be naive in dealing with people who have no intentions on abiding by what God says. There is precedent on this in scripture.

    2. We have to be careful that in our adherence to scripture we dont punish those who need to hear from us what the Lord would say.

    Balance and wisdom are the watch words.

  14. Pastor Foster, I am in total agreement to about the forbidding of fellowship with Soulforce as mentioned by you and Independent Conservative. I see where Rik Fleming case stands too–I would add to say that sitting down to eat Firstly, SPIRITUALLY with reprobate person is the ultimate danger! I mean spiritually in fellowship, worship, praise, prayer, HOLY communion, word, and doctrine! 2Co 6:14-18
    (14) Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
    (15) And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
    (16) And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    (17) Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
    (18) And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

    Rik, remember the Lord Jesus and the early apostles were divinely led by the Spirit of God whenever they encountered Soulforces, etc. They were preaching the Gospel of Christ with total repentance from sins and being filled with the Holy Ghost! The Lord and these men did not compromise and they tore down false works whenever they encountered them! I would warn you to careful and “do not cast your pearls to swines and give the holy to dogs…” Matthew 7:6

    Now, I speak on this wise by revelation. The Lord Jesus Christ came to the religious order of His time and to the synagogues and temple to present THE KINGDOM of GOD and saying Repent! Satan who wants to be like GOD is presenting a copycat counterfeit presentation to the Orthodox religion–Christianity and its many, many branches–the Antichrist Kingdom is saying Repent(Reject the TRUTH–JESUS, The WORD of GOD never said anything about homosexuality–bold face lie because, JESUS is the WORD!)

    Soulforce is totally ANTICHRIST in that they are driven by the spirit of antichrist to come to these Churches–our brothers and sisters in Christ, and they are presenting a FALSE GOSPEL–Soulforce and the gay christian agenda are saying to ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY–Repent and accept us the way we are, Accept our gay and lesbian families! Remember the devil and his cohorts know the word of GOD too but the devil perverts the truth!

  15. Here’s video that the group Soulforce captured of Harry Jackson addressing them: Bishop Harry Jackson and the American Family Outing

    How are his words in that clip any different from what T.D. Jakes has said? Both are “thanking” Soulforce for dialog. Showing a desire to talk to them. Jackson is asking “how do we deliver the gospel?”… As if some new plan is needed.

    The plan in the Bible is already clear. And for groups that are so-called brothers promoting immorality it’s Don’t talk to snakes.

    Harry speaks of disagreeing and using the Spirit of Christ. Given that, all Souforce should have received from Harry Jackson was a clear reading of 1 Corinthians 5 and 1 Corinthians 6, then shown the door if they remained firm in their position. No Q & A, no debates and no meals.

    We know who Soulforce is, they’ve made themselves very clear about where they stand. There should not have been any meeting and these plays of naiveté from Jackson and others are bogus.

    Jackson THANKED Soulforce for INSISTING on having dialog.

  16. IC,

    I rewatched the above video and in it there is nothing to indicate that Soulfarce was welcomed into their worship service, ate bread together or were treated as Christian brothers in any way whatsoever. According to the video (which is all that I am basing use for my take on this) is that the night BEFORE the service they met with Soulfarce representatives, had a debate and then shared the gospel. THE NEXT DAY during a worship service a homosexual (not part of Soulfarce) heard the gospel and accepted Christ. Unless I am missing something, this pastor treated Soulfarce representatives the same way I would treat a JW at my door. But, perhaps more went on than what is being conveyed in this video that I am not aware of.

  17. Rik Fleming,

    You keep speaking of a JW at your door, but let me point out some differences to you:

    You don’t know the JW by name and have copious amounts of their PERSONAL open defiance towards scripture before you see them on your doorstep. As an individual on your door step that you never met before and never heard of personally, you don’t know what they’ve heard of the true gospel.

    You don’t know the JW at all other than them saying they are a JW. With Soulforce, this group SENDS A REQUEST and EVERYBODY KNOWS WELL WHAT THEY ARE DOING IT FOR. Their representatives are well published in their open defiance to the commands of God. It’s not a case of you opening your door one morning and somebody you never knew is standing there talking JW speak and you try offering them the truth.

    Now you and I have some basic differences of views that we’ve already shared our views on and I don’t find further discussion on those to be profitable, because we simply do not agree.

    I see you as my brother in Christ.

    Soulforce has already made it clear, they don’t desire to simply sit in a worship service, they want A MEETING. Which they got from Harry and others.

    However, Soulforce did attend that worship service the following day where Harry Jackson preached.

    See this page where it says:

    May 25, 2008, Sunday Morning Service
    at Hope Christian Church, Beltsville, MD.

    The American Family Outing LGBT families
    attend the Hope Christian Church service.

    So there you go bro.

  18. Rik, to be honest, when you watch the first video of Jackson at the church,then the second one of Jackson on CBN you see two different men. If you can go on CBN and call them sinners, why not just tell them to their face they are sinners?

    Was Jackson afraid to do that or more concerned with his image? Personally, I cant reconcile the two speeches.

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