Marriage issues

Due to the nature of the comments, I’ve decided to redesignate the posts so as not to confuse others who are wondering why the comments don’t match the post.

This is a discusssion on the merits, origins and contemporary understanding of biblical marriage and its applications for contemporary Christians.

What’s your take?

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34 thoughts on “Marriage issues

  1. What an excellent idea! Those are good ground rules. I’ve had an earful of the “hate” claims on my piece about the 1st grade trip to the “gay wedding” so I’m looking forward to see what responses you get.

  2. Let me first say that I am a Christian who has repented of my sins and accepted Jesus Christ as both Savior LORD. I read my bible and I go to church, so that should take care of that… Now..…Let’s talk…

    For now…I’m just going to address question #1.

    1. What exactly has this site done that can be qualified as hate or hateful against homosexuals, religious or political?

    Well, that depends on what the qualification is based on? Is it based on your (DL) opinion of what you’ve said in the posts? Or is it based on the definition of hate from the dictionary? (oh..wait…is the dictionary a credible source?)

    Well, just in case we find that dictionary is a credible source, let’s see what the word hate is defined as.…(oh…don’t worry…and relax your keyboard trigger finger, we’ll deal with it from the Word of God in question #2…right now I’m sticking to question 1)

    Hate: to dislike intensely or passionately; feel extreme aversion for or extreme hostility toward; (imply feeling intense dislike or aversion toward something. HATE, the simple and general word, suggests passionate dislike and a feeling of enmity.)

    Just because you don’t use the word hate doesn’t mean that some things are not hateful…

    So…What has this site done that can be qualified as hate?

    As moderator of the site, I’m sure you remember allowing these words on the site.

    August 2008… “TD JAKES IS A DIRTY STINKING FILTHY LIAR…..which makes you a sick, twisted pervert, liar by extension and association. “

    I have no way of knowing, but there’s a chance that whomever this was directed to wasn’t drawn to Christ by those words…But, just in fairness, calling someone a liar can be justified from John 8:44 when Jesus is calling folk children of the devil….however, that is still a far, far cry from calling someone sick, filthy, a pervert and stinking. Furthermore, that particular string of words are not in the bible, and we are sticking to the bible…right??. There are scriptures with each of these words in it separately. However, when you allow someone to call another person these things on your site????…uhhh…it’s a long shot, but…..it could be looked at as hateful.

  3. The word “hate” is used in at least three different manners in the word of God.

    First, there is “Malicious and unjustifiable feeling towards others in which God’s Word condemns Anyone who claims to live in God’s light and hates a brother or sister is still in the dark. It’s the person who loves brother and sister who dwells in God’s light and doesn’t block the light from others. But whoever hates is still in the dark, stumbles around in the dark, doesn’t know which end is up, blinded by the darkness. (I John 2:9-11) The way we know we’ve been transferred from death to life is that we love our brothers and sisters. Anyone who doesn’t love is as good as dead. Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know very well that eternal life and murder don’t go together. (I John 3:15)

    Second, there is a hate defined as: “A feeling of aversion for
    that which is evil or wrong.” Here is an example from the Word of the things that God hates

    Proverbs 6:16-19
    These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
    A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
    An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
    A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

    These 7 things can be interpreted differently depending on the person…so, I won’t even get into it lest we get off track from the question asked.
    Third, this kind of hate in found in “a relative preference of onething over another.” In this aspect, “hate” simply means to “love less.”

    In Matthew 14:26, Jesus said, “If any man cometh unto
    me, and hateth not his own father, and mother, and wife, and
    children, and brethren, and sisters, yea his own life, he cannot be
    my disciple.”In other words, if one loves father, mother, wife, children, more that
    they love the Lord, they cannot be His disciple.

    Obviously, we are not to hate the person who is in sin,
    but we must hate the error or the sin which he or she is
    committing.

    That’s my answer to question #2.

    Question #3

    Neutral is defined as: not aligned with or supporting any side or position in a controversy.

    As a believer, this would be quite a challenge, because of the Word of God is my compass, but if I had to use neutral criteria, I would look for basic things that most human beings are capable of showing like respect , kindness , the tone of the responses..(is what is being said condescending? Insulting?)

    Neutrally speaking..

    definitions:
    respect – esteem for or a sense of the worth or excellence of a person

    kindness – of a good or benevolent nature or disposition, as a person

    once again..neutrally speaking

  4. Wow! I feel some tension with this post. I will address Question # 6.

    But speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the Head, even Christ-Ephesians 4:15 (NASB)

    I want to address one of the question presented earlier whether the church hates homosexuals in general. When I comes to compassion and understanding, most people exhibit this if it’s something that they can relate to. If a person with alcoholism stands up in church and says that they have this problem, the church for the most part embraces him/her and walks them through the power of the Holy Spirit out of that. Same thing with a person with a drug problem. The Church can embrace them and offers them ways out of this life because they know someone who has this same condition. Lets’ go now to someone who says they are a person with same sex attraction and struggles to overcome this. The Church for the most part rejects them and call them an abomination before God without offering any type of help.

    This is what most people with same sex attraction. can relate to. This is why people who are trapped in thi s life (miliant or not) spread lies and call this a hate site. I know because I used to be one of those. I had a strong dislike for many people including GCM Watch because I thought no one including “Church”people understand or had compassion that most of us didn’t choose our attractions but wanted to way out.

    The Church as a whole must speak in truth in love. When people say they’re attracted to the same sex, embrace them as people created in the image of God and offering help which doesn’t include name calling, jokes, and other hurtful displays. Walking people out of homosexuality is the key. Only then will people embrace the real truth and have complete joy.

  5. lol. I have to really think about my post. Usually I write from my heart. Tim Wilkins of Cross Ministry is a good resource of the Truth in Love Perspective.

  6. Jysuper,

    “Lets’ go now to someone who says they are a person with same sex attraction and struggles to overcome this. The Church for the most part rejects them and call them an abomination before God without offering any type of help.”

    Excellent point!! The church in general hasn’t dealt well with sexuality as a whole. My synopsis of the way I’ve heard it dealt with has been “the bible said it, it’s just wrong..now stop it!!”


    GCMW: Please provide at least one specific example of this. Im cautioning against broad generalizations without any evidence. If you cannot produce it, please retract this statement.

    It’s not just same sex attraction either. Being single and over 30, most of what I’ve been taught in the church is how/ what/ when to do things to prepare for marriage. Marriage is God’s plan, and His will, it’s his purpose, be frutiful and multiply…..and so on and so on…However, I always wonder why a lot of the teachings aren’t about how to be single?

    Afterall Jesus, John the Baptist, Elijah and a host of other great men in the bible were all single men…

    GCMW: Paul, this isnt an open forum for introducing new discussion lines. Please stay on topic.

  7. One specific example meaning what? I don’t understand…

    Jysuper’s generalization of the church or my generalization of the church?

    And by specific example do you mean the church name, city, pastor, day/ time??

    I’ve been in a lot of church services over the 20 years that I’ve been a Christian….

    GCMW: Yes, pick one and state how recent it was. i.e. I was at a church in LA and heard the pastor say…. etc.

  8. “This is why people who are trapped in thi s life (miliant or not) spread lies and call this a hate site. I know because I used to be one of those. I had a strong dislike for many people including GCM Watch because I thought no one including “Church”people understand or had compassion that most of us didn’t choose our attractions but wanted to way out”

    Jysuper, no matter how charitable you may be, darkeness will always hate the light becuase it is powered by satan the father of lies. I cant expect anything less of those outside of God’s family who honestly hate what GCM Watch does. It is however rather telling on those who claim to be gay christians.

    The other thing is I felt the same way about the church when I was a gay man. I thought the church hated me because of who I was and I transferred that anger towards God. But neither he nor the church was to blame for my lust and sin which ultimately enveloped my life for 11 years. There was no way I could see that (due to spiritual blindness) until I was truly saved and repentant.

  9. Well, speaking of specifics….

    In my attempts to stay on topic, I have provided specific answers to your questions #1-3 of your original post…..

    Now, you want me to provide specifics about the place/ date/ location, etc that I’ve heard things in the church? (as if i’ve kept a record) It’s an unreasonalbe request, so I won’t even dignify it with a reponse.

    Just know this…in the last 6 months going to church in Texas, I’ve heard several pastors say “it’s in the bible, i believe it and that settles it.” concerning sexuality.

    It’s quite puzzling to me that I’m asked for specifics and the post from which I quoted from isn’t asked…

    why is that?

    GCMW: You said it was an “excellent point” (with several exclamation points), so how is it such an excellent point when you cant provide even one example? And how in the world is someone saying its in the bible, I believe it and that settles it “hate”? Because someone believes whats in the Bible is hate? Is that your example?

  10. Hello again,

    I’m not trying to start any drama on here about question #6. I’m just trying to give my perspective based on what I have seen in church over the years. I think there have been some good points raised here so far.

    I think Paul made a good point about the fact the church views marriage as the ideal for everyone. Just in the last few years have churches embraced single Christians and offered ministries and resources towards this segment of the church. In regards to question #6, a good way to Interpret Ephesians 4:15 and speak the truth in love is to give positive examples of same sex friendships. Jesus and John,David and Jonathan had deep friendships which weren’t sexual. It’s nothing wrong with having close friends of the same sex, but don’t take it to the sexual level. This has helped people especially myself who is single stay focused and not be engulfed in the whole marriage is the ideal for everyone principle.

    Just here to give different viewpoints to address this question.

    GCMW: Jysuper, you seem to want to blame the church for believeing what God ordained. The church didnt create marriage, God did. And he said it was not good for man (that would be you) to be alone and thus he created a woman from the man and brought her to him. And he declared it good. Marriage is God’s ideal and standardized relationship. The ONLY and I repeat ONLY reason marriage is unappealing to some is because of sin and its effects on us. The problem isnt with God or what we believe.

  11. Paul none of your several comments have adequately addressed any of the questions I posed. As you can see all they have done is taken us off track from the post.

    The only real followup from your post is the biblical definition of hate. Which one is applicable in the context of this post?

  12. To GCM Watch,

    Obviously, you either did not read what I posted or chose to ignore it. Which one?

    for question #1 I sited an instance that could be(and I quote from the question you posed) “qualified as hate or hateful against homosexuals, religious or political.”

    And I had substantial evidence from THIS SITE. How is that not answering the question? You are obviously confused.

    Now, which definition of hate applies to the post I referenced in question #1? I think the answer is obvious. Read it again please.

    To Jysuper: “It’s nothing wrong with having close friends of the same sex, but don’t take it to the sexual level. This has helped people especially myself who is single stay focused and not be engulfed in the whole marriage is the ideal for everyone principle.” Great comments!!

    This question relates to jyuper’s comments about marriage and GCMWatch’s response to it.

    It is the truth that marriage is God’s idea, and the fact is that he created the family before He created the church, so we know this.

    However, I am opposed the the statement that the “ONLY and I repeat ONLY reason why marriage is unappealing to some is because of sin and its effects on us.” Can you show me where that is in scripture?

    While we’re in this vein, I still would like to bring out the fact that Jesus, John the Baptist, Elijah, and other great people of God in the bible were indeed single all of their lives. Was in unappealing to them because of sin and its effects on us?

  13. “You seem to want to blame the church for believeing what God ordained”

    This is very off base. You’re comments are implying that heterosexual marriage is the ideal for everyone. It’s almost as if people can’t live without sex which is false. Nothing wrong is two men and two women being friends. Before Adam and Eve had a relationship Adam and God had a relationship first.

  14. “GCMW: You said it was an “excellent point” (with several exclamation points), so how is it such an excellent point when you cant provide even one example? And how in the world is someone saying its in the bible, I believe it and that settles it “hate”? Because someone believes whats in the Bible is hate? Is that your example?”

    I never said that someone saying its in the bible, i beleive it and that settles it is “hate.” You don’t see that statement in ANY of my posts.

    Just for clarification,….let’s do a quick review because I want to effectively communicate so that we can continue this conversation.

    You posted a number of questions in the orginal post. In response to that, I answered questions # 1-3. There was no direct response to my posts.

    Then, jysuper answered question #6 and in that same post he said “The Church for the most part rejects them and call them an abomination before God without offering any type of help.”

    I responded to jysuper’s statement, and said this as I agreed… “The church in general hasn’t dealt well with sexuality as a whole. My synopsis of the way I’ve heard it dealt with has been “the bible said it, it’s just wrong..now stop it!!”

    From that comment, you asked me to provide at least one specific example of when this has happened to me…which I provided when I said “in the last 6 months going to church in Texas..”

    Now, how you got HATE out of that? I really don’t know.

    I answered the questions about HATE in the earlier posts..and when I answered the questions, I gave an example of someone being called sick, filthy, a pervert and stinking…ON your BLOG.

    then, I defined hate with biblical examples.

  15. Well, this is a definite sidebar discussion which has nothing to do with this post, so in that respect, you and I are both off base.

    However, Jysuper you arent acknowledging the ORIGIN of heterosexual marriage which I cited. Why? If you dont acknowledge God’s oringinal creative intent, then what exactly are you advocating…an alternative to God’s intent? Its appears your reasoning is more social than biblical. Why?

    Why shouldnt the church promote the Christian heterosexual marriage if that is indeed the only model GOD created for us? God did not create woman as man’s platonic friend, but as his emotional, relational and sexual companion. Had he done the former, the divine imperative (be fruitful and multiply) would have never been accomplished.

    In context, there is no mention or implication in the Genesis account which portrays woman in any other way. So how did it get to the point to where heterosexual marriage is not God’s ideal relationship model for everyone? What man did he exempt when he said its not good that man be alone?

    If you (like Paul did) cite people in the bible who were single as justification for singleness, please check the purpose of their lives and tell me what single people are doing the same things because they are single? In the bible, singleness came because of a specific, defined call to service. Not because the person didnt want a woman as a sexual partner. And in every case that purpose was accomplished. So your contemporary scenario isnt an equitable comparison.

    Some people tend to use the same reasoning with divorce. Even if the divorce rate gets 100%, –according to Jesus– it is ONLY due to the hardness (read:sin) of people’s heart, not because God approves.

  16. Paul, thanks for your recap. Im not sure Im following you. I think I said this already but you are speaking from more of a sideline pundit perspective which is not what I was expecting.

    Thus, my silence on your remarks.

    At this point I am still confused as to how you are making a case of hate out of one instance of innappropriate name calling ON my BLOG.

    Thats just very weak example of as you acknowledged could be viewed as hate. That’s subjective at best.

  17. I agree that marriage is God’s Idea for humankind. In Corinthians 7, Paul says that it is great to remain single as I (Paul) am. If you can’t abstain, it is good to marry. Marriage is optional not a requirement for everyone. To tell homosexuals they must be with the opposite sex in marriage in order to please God is simply not the case. They must first Submit to God’s will which is abstaining from gay sexual activity. Then if opposite sex attraction develop afterwards then great.

    Opposite of homosexuality is holiness first not heterosexuality.

    GCMW: At no time have I argued that heterosexual marriage is a “requirement”. I have advocated for God’s original creative intent and as such (in proper context of covenant marriage) is the gold standard for relationships from the biblical standpoint. Again I emphasize that is God’s intent, not man’s.

  18. Your question about hate was subjective, so how could the answer not be subjective?

    This is an example: Some may view being cursed out, punched and degraded on a daily basis as hateful and another could see it as love, depending on the person. Of course it’s subjective and of course you’re going to disagree.

    Plus, you didn’t mention how many examples you wanted, you asked for evidence and I gave it to you. Would 2 examples be convincing? I seriously doubt it.

    And since you’re not following me on from my recap, let’s just move on from that, because where there is lack of understanding, communication is not effective.

    “If you (like Paul did) cite people in the bible who were single as justification for singleness, please check the purpose of their lives and tell me what single people are doing the same things because they are single? In the bible, singleness came because of a specific, defined call to service. Not because the person didnt want a woman as a sexual partner.”

    It is the truth that some people in the bible were single because of a defined call to service. there is no refute with that…the issue that i was raising was when you said that the ONLY and I do mean ONLY reason why marriage is unappealing to some is because of sin. Well, I guess you answered your own question here. It’s unappealing to some because of a call to service for some not just sin or hardness of heart. and even if i did spout off a list of single people that i knew that were not married and NOT in sin, but serving the Lord with gladness and happy with it….would it make a difference?

    And where is that scripture in the bible that talks about people who are single because they’re called to service, not because the person didnt want a woman as a sexual partner.”

    you mentioned divorce, but no one ever mentioned divorce here.

    GCMW: Paul, lets cut to the chase. In order to understand you motivation and perhaps these comments which continue to be as confusing as possible: are you married or single and why?

  19. to jysuper,

    “Marriage is optional not a requirement for everyone. To tell homosexuals they must be with the opposite sex in marriage in order to please God is simply not the case.”

    I think Paul said it best in I Cor. 7:7 when he said

    “7Sometimes I wish everyone were single like me—a simpler life in many ways! But celibacy is not for everyone any more than marriage is. God gives the gift of the single life to some, the gift of the married life to others.

  20. Paul, let me give you some really good advice. If you start the game of making assertions which have not been implied on this site, I’ll delete your comments. Use your intelligence for something more constructive than that.

  21. Fair enough. To make sure it doesn’t happen in the future…can you tell me where I made assertions that are not implied on this site?

    Paul said: To tell homosexuals they must be with the opposite sex in marriage in order to please God is simply not the case.”

  22. Oh and by the way….this is not a blog about my intelligence, so I would appreciate it if you would leave it out of the conversation.

    GCMW: No its not a blog about your intelligence, it was just a brief comment. I do however think its a valid comment to make, especially in light of the fact that you keep introducing strawmen into the discussion. If that’s not the case, please don’t engage.

  23. GCMW: Paul, lets cut to the chase. In order to understand you motivation and perhaps these comments which continue to be as confusing as possible: are you married or single and why?

    The only thing that’s confusing to me is the fact that you site some of my responses to being subjective, yet you ask me a personal question, which is totally subjective and I’m sure you will find sometihng wrong iwth the answer, but If you would’ve read my posts, then you would know that I am a single man over 30…32 to be exact. The reason why I am single is because right now, I am to serve the Lord and seek to be one with Him before I am one with another. It has nothing to do with sin…..am I happy in my state? Yes. Do I serve the Lord? Yes. Do I beleive that because I’m not married that I’m somehow disobeying God’s gold standard to be married? No Do I have female friends that are platonic relationships? Absolutely. am I in because God didn’t create the woman as man’s platonic friend and I have platonic friends? NO.

  24. LoL, there’s been misunderstanding

    I did not say this….”To tell homosexuals they must be with the opposite sex in marriage in order to please God is simply not the case.”

    i was only quoting what jysuper said in his post and commenting on it.

    check the posts…easy fix

    GCMW: Well thats funny, you keep quoting jysuper and heartily agreeing. If you quoted and agreed with it then it becomes your words, huh? Again Paul, please put the brakes on the cat and mouse games. Its silly and very unproductive.

  25. Oh, and this may show my lack of intelligence for sure, so pray for me now…but

    what is a strawman??

    i thought we were having a great conversation..

    GCMW: Just google it.

  26. So Paul you are saying that you want to be married or that you never want to be married to a woman?

    Again I will say that if you use biblical character’s singleness as justification for your own singleness then its fair to judge you by the standard of their lives.

    Paul – evangelized half of the known world and passionately fought to birth and disciple the gentile church in obedience to mission from the Lord.

    John the Baptist – publicly preached a prophetic message of repentance and adherence to God’s will that eventually caused him to be murdered.

    Elijah – publicly defeated a major gaggle of false prophets in a showdown. He went against the ruling powers at the very real risk of his own life.

    Those are the examples you cited. Now, you said that you “serve the Lord”. Can you be a little clearer about what you are doing that compares to the single men you cited?

  27. Here’s the thing. Even if I told you that I have been a minister for over 10 years and have served in the role ministering in and out of churches to people who are seeking Christ, as well as ministered to people who are seeking God to become whole….would it make that much of a difference? I serve the Lord in many capacities…shall i rehatch and tell you all of the services that I’ve done and how many folk I’ve led to Christ? does it make a difference at all??

    The point is that I am single and I am happy and marriage is not a priority to me. and no I am not in sin. If God sees fit for me to be married, then He will make the provisions and I will be married. and I will still be whole, and happy because my source is God…in whatever state I find myself in….

  28. I had to take a step back for a minute.

    I responded to Question #6 to begin with and I basically want to sum up what I was saying.

    Speaking the truth that homosexual sexual acts are a sin but say so in love which doesn’t include name calling or dehumanizing someone.

    Heterosexual marriage and celibacy are only acceptable in God’ s Sight when it comes to sexual intimacy. Both are virtues.

    My dad who is a Baptist minister told me to embrace holiness(chastity) which is acceptable in His sight first. Then if want to get married then do that. Not everyone is called to be married. That is what I was saying with this.

    Nothing wrong again with friends because without friends the celibate life is very difficult to live. We all need friendships.

  29. It seems this post has died down. I wanted a forward a link from Victor J. Adamson website which poses the question of a man who has ceased his gay sexual activity but chooses not to be with a woman. He asks if God will accept for choosing this. Victor’s response is on point and biblical when it comes to this issue. Paul and I were trying to bring Victor’s point out on this. See for yourself.

    http://www.victorjadamson.com/qotw2/article.php?id=85

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