Is it ever ok to deny Jesus?

I have been thinking about  this every since we have been seeing growing cases of discrimination against Christians in America.  We all know that discrimination eventually leads to persecution.  Let’s say full blown persecution  breaks out in America. The sort where lives are at stake. In that context, let me ask you this:

Is it ever any circumstance  allowable, acceptable, etc to deny Jesus?

I’ll give an example.

Someone threatens to kill my entire family if I affirm Christ. To save my family, would it be acceptable (to God?) to deny Christ in that instance even if in my heart I do not deny Him?

This is just an example.

I know there are some very obvious answers which I agree with, but beyond that what do you think. If you need further clarification, just ask.

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46 thoughts on “Is it ever ok to deny Jesus?

  1. My bible tells me that if I deny Him befroe men, that I will be denied of Him before the Father. So a plain and simple answer would be for me to affirm Christ.

    We are all given probation of life while here on earth, those that don’t know this are lost already, so if they have not made their calling and election sure, then they are lost!

    Eternity is too long without God

  2. Well, honestly, if I were in a situation where someone was going to kill my entire family if I affirmed Christ, then I probably wouldn’t in that moment…but in my heart I would know that I do and have affirmed Him as Lord. Honestly.

    What’s the difference if I affirm Him with my mouth, but my works don’t line up? Or if I have the works in line, but don’t affirm Him properly?

    I don’t believe that it would be God’s will for my ENTIRE family to be killed for a verbal statement that could be empty depending on the lifestyle.

    When we see the scripture in Matthew 10:32, we have to look deeper than just when our lives are on the line…I’m sure if it was the other way around…and an aethiest had to confess Jesus or die…they would confess at the drop of a hat. But what does that really mean in a life threatening moment when they’ve denied God the entire time? So, the scriptures instructs us to live a lifestyle that affirms Jesus and if we do that…then if we are threatened with death of our loved ones…it won’t make much of a difference I don’t think.

    And there are so many variations of what could happen if a person confessed Christ in that moment…lost their entire family and then because of grief…backslid the rest of their lives…to me..their back in the same situation as before…denying him by their works.

    This begs the question: Does affirming Jesus in a life-threatening situation guarantee a ticket to heaven?

    This is just me keeping it real.

    Thoughts?

  3. I mean…afterall Peter denied Jesus not just once…but 3 times and was still one of Jesus’ disciples. Jesus knew He was going to do that before He did it…and I don’t even think Peter’s family was threatened…

    He went away and wept after the cock crew, but he was still forgiven.

    Think about that….

  4. But after Peter recieved the Holy Spirit, he took beatings. jailtime, and was eventually crucified upside down for the name of Christ….

  5. Pharisee agreed and you are correct and I think in the way youve expressed it, applicable.

    A few observations.

    1. Peter was in the “heat of the moment” so to speak. Thus denial of Christ seems to usually come when it is a distressing, perhaps even deadly set of circumstances.

    2. I agree based on what you said that denial is a sin, yet forgiveable. You’d have to add lying to that because to say you do not know him and you do is a lie.

    3. As djenk pointed out, there are consequences seemingly despite what your response would be.

    @ vaughn: is the cited scripture flexible enough to allow what pharisee said. That a vocal denial does not mean that much?

  6. True. But his denial of Christ initially….didn’t cause him to be condemned..nor denied before the Father….Redemption.

  7. All who live Godly shall suffer persecution….so there’s no instance in which we have an excuse or permission to save our necks or anyone else’s neck naturally so through the denial of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We cannot deny him no matter the cost. Look at Job. He lost everything, including his wife and kids because he refused to deny God. This scenario is no different, and to top it off we have the Holy Ghost.

    There’s no temptation taken us accept that is common to man, and with the temptation God makes a way to escape. So God has the remedy if you continue to acknowledge him. In all thy ways acknowledge him. and he shall direct thy path.

    The final thing to consider is that you have to understand that a saved loved one dying is not a loss, but gain. To live is Christ, but to die is GAIN!! So if this is a saved loved one, then you should rejoice (despite with some hurt and sorrow) for their life in Christ when they died, if they happen to.

    Lastly, if you refuse to deny Christ, the unsaved one that you’re attempting to protect will witness that stedfast resolve and could get saved. It don’t take but a moment for God to come in and rescue an unsaved person who calls on Him. They have the responsibility of receiving the message of Christ for themselves, and there were times when they had opportunity and did not receive Christ if they happen to die outside the will. So God’s judgment is fair, you have to trust it.

    So in everything we should consider the example we show for others. It’s never acceptable to deny Christ in word or deed. That one that you want to save in the moment or in the long run needs your unwavering commitment to proclaim CHRIST no matter what the cost.

  8. Great observations.

    1. I don’t necessarily agree that Peter was in the “heat of the moment”. The thing that struck me about Peter denying Christ was that he did it 3 times! After the 1st or 2nd time, the heat should’ve gone away. this was a calculated thoughtful decision that he made.

    2. Lying is forgivable also

    3. I need clarification for this point. ARe you saying that Peter was beaten and hung upside down eventually because he denied Christ before the crucifixion?

  9. One other thought for phariseebuster,

    you asked: Does affirming Jesus in a life-threatening situation guarantee a ticket to heaven?

    No, King Hezekiah sought the Lord to extend his life when he was told he would die, and later died out of the will for being disobedient. So we aren’t guaranteed heaven from our past activity. We must continue in the faith.

    But to counter your question, ask yourself:

    Does denial of Christ guarantee I’ll go to hell?

    based on the scripture we know that denial guarantees we can’t go to heaven without repenting, so there’s no absolute going to hell unless you have not repented and been reconciled. Peter repented and came back to God’s will for his life.

    God Bless All

  10. The Pharisee’s were blind so much so that they thought that the external practises and exhibitions thereof was the salvation, but Jesus blew their way of thinking out of the water!

    Like the girl that died at Calumbine high school, in Colorodo. She was asked to deny The Lord? No, and she was took out immediately, shot on the spot!

    Knowing that the things that we see are temporal, and that God is eternal, then what manner of men ought we to be? Denying Him at the moment of death is absurd in my book, because there were so many that were killed in lion’s den, being crucified, boiled in oil, beheaded. Hoping for a better resurrection.

    The 3 hebrew boys from The book of Daniel, would have died and been martyrs while knowing that God is able. But God intervened.

    This is too serious to me, not having a death wish or have a desire to commit suicide by cop or anyone else, but why did the martyrs of old have that fortitude?

    It would be a shame to sell your birthright out in the last moments of your life!

  11. by heat of the moment I mean he was under pressure. I havent seen one case in the NT where any denial of Christ came in a casual context. Usually even after the canon of scripture was completed and the church was in its early stages, denial of the faith (Christ) was almost always under a threat of some sort.

    Also remember I asked the question under the context of persecution, not just casual “gee I dont know Jesus”.

    I will say that it is grace and mercy that forgives not obligation. Anyone who thinks they can deny Christ and just because Peter was forgiven they will be also. That is presumptuous at best.

    Also you seem to say that premeditated denial is okay using Peter as an example. I find that strange.

  12. Philippians 2
    10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

    11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    If you denial him, you will then confess that he is lord.
    Why not do that the first? Which is you first love?
    Something to think about….

    I do think when it is written ” denial him he will denial you to his Father” is meant that the one’s who hear the Gospel and then turn away.

  13. Vaughn the girl from Columbine is a good example. Although there was no threat to save someone else, I wonder if the killers had told if she affirmed Christ her family would die as well would her response been the same.

    I fundamental question is (and I think youve answered it) would you deny Christ to save the life of someone you loved or it that even justifiable biblically? I know laying down our life for a friend is the apex of “greater love” but is saving your life for a friend at the expense of affirming Christ “love”?

  14. How serious is the denial? Do you simply say “I don’t know the man” (like Peter) or must I call down oaths and curses and blaspheme His name and deny him as Savior? I would really like to think that I would do neither but I think that one may be worse than the other.

  15. Pre-Pentecost Peter was without the counsel of the Holy Spirit, unlike born-again believers in this church age. His zealousness was from his own power. That was why he (his flesh) failed in that moment, like any one of us.

    The particular circumstance we’re talking about here is highly speculative, but if this indeed were to happen, then as proverbs28nine said re: Job, it would be a testing from the devil and the fate of those unsaved (including the persecutors) may just hinge on the holy and righteous answer.

    Two things to consider: Christ’s saving work is sufficient to cover the failings of a born-again Christian at any given time; at the same time, a born-again Christian has available to them the full counsel of the Holy Spirit — whose working would have powerful consequences.

    Also, Jesus instructs us not to be anxious over this kind of situation or we may rely on our own devices when that times comes. This may be counterintuitive, since it’s human nature to prepare, which is why Jesus specifically addressed this situation in Mark 13:11:

    “And when they bring you to trial and deliver you over, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.”

    And also the persecutor could very well be family or friends, as Jesus says in the next verse:

    “And brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death.”

    Jesus will carry our burden. We must have faith.

  16. You misuderstand me…..You asked the question under the context of persecution and I answered you honestly in saying that I probably would not affirm my belief under the context of persecution in order to save my family.

    The Peter denial was simply me referencing a documented case of the denial of Christ from the word of God to show that it has been done (wrong or right), and the person was redeemed…not condemed to hell. I agree with you. Anyone who thinks that they can deny Christ just because Peter was forgiven they will be also…is crazy. i don’t think that way…and I never said that….

    And …i sense a hint of a twisting of my words so let me just clear this now. Even though it “seems” that I am saying that premeditated denial is ok…that is not what I am saying and it is the farthest thing from the truth of what I was attempting to say…that doesn’t even make sense. You came up with that one on your own…and the only tihng that’s strange is how you came to that conclusion. lOl.

    GCMWatch is built by the Word of God. You stand on the Word of God. Nothing is more important to you than the Word of God. You pride yourself in the Word of God. Well…the denial of Christ by Peter is in the Word of God.

    That can’t be twisted no matter how you look at it.

  17. Proverbs28nine,

    I didn’t think about King Hezekiah in this context, but it was a good example.

    My only question is…how does that example balance with the cross of Christ?

  18. Pharisee, no one is twisting your words. If youre misunderstood simply clarify yourself without all the unnecessary superlatives.

    Now, back to the discussion.

    There was no implication on my part or anyone’s from what I see to deny or diminish Peter’s denial is located in scripture. Its an obvious given to anyone who even casually reads the bible. You injected into the conversation and so you have to defend your use of it in this context.

    Of Peter’s denial you said: “this was a calculated thoughtful decision that he made.”

    So you are saying that calculated and premeditated are different?

    I dont want to get into an unecessary sidebar, but you seem to be implying that Peter pre-thought his denial of Christ. I dont think that’s correct. So if you are not attempting to say its okay what’s the purpose for bringing that up? Are you arguing against Peter’s denial or for it?

  19. JW, it might not be so far fetched. Severe persecution of the church has occured with great intensity over the seasons of its growth. Though no specific historical examples of what I proposed may not readily come to mind, I dont think it can be termed “highly speculative”. Anything is possible when evil lurches out.

    My question with scenario attached was as I said just an example.

    The broader question is this: Does there exist any circumstance in which it is permissable and acceptable for a believer to deny Christ?

    My scenario was simply an example.

  20. Pastor Foster,

    Interesting subject, so I start off by saying, what we confess will be our test. LOL, the rapper in me, Amen.

    If we say like Peter did, LORD JESUS, I will go all the way with YOU, no matter what, come “Hell or highwater”, you’re going to be tested. Thank the LORD JESUS CHRIST that HE prayed that for us as HE told Peter, concerning this matter, that our faith fail us not. Because the enemy of our souls does desire to sift us as wheat! Amen.

    Well, this is what I believe. When I study the various stages and ages of the Bible, Our times and seasons or our generation today, what book of the Bible most closely resembles our current times. I truly believe the Book of Daniel. Why one may ask?

    Daniel and the 3 Hebrew boys were surrounded by idolatry, wickedness, apostasy, witchcraft, presidents, governors, rulers, kings, princes, nobles, and all types of magistrates 24/7. But the word of GOD says that Daniel and the 3 Hebrew boys did not defile themselves, spiritually and naturally, even though they served the heathen king’s court. The book of Daniel is a shadow of the Christian in America. Daniel and company were captives of Babylon. We are captives of this world system(USA, etc.) or this present life. Jerusalem was Daniel’s home. Jerusalem before Nebachadnezzar’s invasion was symbolic of heaven on earth. For us, heaven is our home. Daniel’s heart and prayers focused towards Jerusalem. Our heart and prayers should be focused to New Jerusalem.
    Just as Babylon had every idol or false god in its kingdom along with Daniel and the 3 Hebrew boys that served the true and living GOD, or as Daniel called HIM, the MOST HIGH GOD. Well does not America embrace every religion, non-religion, etc. etc. today just like Babylon. This country is the closest thing that many end-time teachers say is modern day Babylon or Mystery Babylon.

    But Daniel’s mindset to not defile himself gave him great favor with most importantly GOD and power over heathen men. Daniel was persecuted for praying in his own home. The 3 Hebrew boys did not bow to the image…i.e. the image of the beast that WE MUST NOT BOW DOWN TO. Amen. GOD honored their faith and delivered them! Hallelujah! I truly believe the same goes for us today in our modern day Babylon. For GOD is no respecter of persons. Amen.

    Now, another book of the Bible that shadows today or these last days speaks of one who did not deny the faith but kept the faith hidden until the appointed time to confess the faith to save the people of GOD, is the book of Esther. Esther being a female symbolizes the Bride or the Church in preparation to receive her king. For Esther it was Ahasuerus. For us the Church, our KING is the KING of Kings and LORD of Lords, JESUS CHRIST, YESHUA HAMASHIACH! Amen.
    I believe, that in these times, certain Christians WILL HAVE to employ the Esther strategy…keep their faith totally secret… in order to get into certain doors to have an impact for CHRIST. There are some of us in these last days that will be John the Baptists in the wilderness preparing the way of the LORD’s Return and some of us will be hidden away like Esther until the appointed time. Esther did not deny the LORD. She used wisdom or discernment that was taught to her by her uncle(Pastor) Mordecai. Amen. What’s even funny, the book of Esther never mentions the Name of GOD in it. A fact.

  21. Pastor Foster,

    I agree with you; I don’t think the example is far-fetched. This type of situation is something that I think we all think about, especially now that we see the sifting of the Church. It would be interesting to hear current stories of persecution coming out of China and India as modern examples. Anyway, “highly speculative” was a poor choice of words.

    I believe the verse you quoted, Matthew 10:33, and Mark 13:11 (in my earlier comment) answer the broader question. The Holy Spirit would not deny Christ under any circumstance, so neither would a God-fearing, born-again Christian, cloaked in the full armor of God, when asked a direct question. But it’s possible a Christian could falter if they try to handle the situation in their own power.

    So my answer, and I think your answer, would be, no, it’s not permissible. Now if the question is whether that believer loses his salvation, that’s a different subject, but I believe that the finished work of the cross is sufficient to cover all past, present and future sins. But as the Bible says, the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so I like Vaughn’s “plain and simple answer” above (comment #1).

    @ EnochWalked: Thanks for sharing your interesting perspective about Daniel and Esther.

  22. simply stated, Christ gives us access to the throne of grace. but we must exercise faith to have what he offers. So hezekiah was not under the same persecution it was just an example of not being guaranteed heaven…that we are capable of backsliding if we lose faith (deny Christ) which is what the topic is addressing.

    to further this if you look at the book of acts, each time there was persecution it was to suppress the message of christ. the apostles were ordered not to preach in his name. that’s essentially what i see in any context where someone would request we deny Christ.

  23. i just want to comment on esther…ill have to search over her not using God, but i think what was apparent was that she belonged to the Israelite nation, so i think it was clear she didn’t serve the god of the king she was under. his god was himself.

    but denying God, and being in position to show God are two different things. God moved esther into position and preserved her; God won’t do that for someone who fails to acknowledge him. the time for you to demonstrate what he has for your life is when the situation arises (someone telling you to deny God).

    she wasnt aware of God’s plan for her from the beginning. she moved up and then the situation presented itself and mordechai challenged her to carry the message to the king to preserve the people of God. remember mordechai clearly told her not to think she was exempt from the same fate b/c she was clearly one of the children of Israel. so it stands to reason that it was not necessary for her to even proclaim God; the king knew she was not from the heathen tribes. her identity was one of God’s chosen people.

    just my take on it…god bless

  24. just another thought tho also, is paul when he was surrounded by the pharisees and saducees and divided the masses over their disagreement. god gave paul a way to escape which was beyond clever. but he never had to really answer to them; their own confusion tore apart their plan to destroy his message.

    and jesus when tempted by satan in wilderness refused what satan offered him to stay in the will of the father, which was to live by the word and worship only God. it was more important to be obedient to god then to gain worldly possessions or temporal/immediate gratification, which would be escaping punishment.

    lastly, remember death and life are in the power of the tongue so your words matter. saying i dont believe christ or follow him is what it is.

  25. Although an OT scenario, I think that the Esther example is in close proximity to what I was supposing.

    1. The Jews, her family were under threat of death.
    2. She had the opportunity to deny her true identity (deny Christ) and perhaps thought to do so until her uncle did a little preaching to her.
    3. Her boldness in affirming her identity saved her people although it did pose deadly risks to her.

    The implications for us –under the threat of persecution and death— is that denying who we are or who we are associated with (Christ) may require our lives or the lives of those we love. But the choice is between saving temporary life and losing eternal life. Jesus said if you lose your life for his sake you will find it [again]. Mt 10:39

    In one sense we know persecution is coming and in that sense we can determine now what we should do. Will our faith hold up under fire? That remains to be seen.

    EW, Im not sure I can agree that Esther was put in some kind of hiding by God. It doesnt seem to be a calculated move to conceal her identity.

  26. While I hope I may never have to make that choice, I know full well that the day is coming will I might have to………..and I know what my answer should be.
    I am praying for the courage to make the right choice- Jesus Christ.

    You see ultimately, my family members were given to me by God, technically they are His more than mine.

    So for the devil to tell me to choose to deny Christ or my family will die, is a test of faith. Do you have faith in the devil that if you deny Christ, he will keep his word and not kill your family? Face it, you can deny Christ, and they kill your family any way, for a murderer is a murderer is a murderer.

    It’s all about fear. A lady was held up at her gate by gun-man who told her not to scream. She obeyed, and he went into the house with her, and raped her while her daughter was upstairs sleeping. Then he left. Folk said well, being raped is better than being killed. Maybe. But once the gunman got in the house, he was now free to rape her, her daughter and still kill them both……..only God knows why he didn’t.

    Fear not, even when fear is trying to kill you. Trust God first, last and always. Deny Christ in 2009 and beyond, is not an option, its a deadly trap.

  27. I agree with the Phariseebuster. Also another biblical old testament reading would be GOOD FOR YOU TO CONSIDER: when Naaman the leper went to Elisha to be healed. Go back and read his conversation with Elisha. Naaman was the Armor Bearer for the King of Syria. He accompanied the King to a place of worship daily, and It was in a Temple of Idol Worship. He was his body guard, so he had to go with him everywhere he went. SEE SCRIPTURE: 2nd Kings 5:1 Now Naaman, Captain of the host of the king of Syria, was a great man with his master, and honorable, because by him the LORD had given deliverance unto Syria: he was also a mighty man in valor, but he was a leper.

    After he went and dipped and was healed, this issue of going into the Temple of idols came up in his conversstion with Elisha. And He spoke to Elisha in this manner: Starting with after he (Naaman) was cleasnsed:

    2nd king 5:14-18 Then went he (Naaman) down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.

    Verse 15 And he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel: now therefore, I pray thee, take a blessing of thy servant.

    Verse 16 But he (Elisha) said, As the LORD liveth, before whom I stand, I will receive none. And he urged him to take it; but he refused.

    LISTEN AT THIS VERSE #17 WITH YOUR SPIRITUAL EARS.
    Verse 17 And Naaman said, Shall there not then, I pray thee, be given to thy servant two mules’ burden of earth? for thy servant will henceforth offer neither burnt offering nor sacrifice unto other gods, but unto the LORD.

    REMEMBER HE WAS THE KINGS ARMOR BEARER AND ESCORTED HIM INTO A TEMPLE OF IDOL WORHSIP DAILY. NOTE THAT HE DID NOT QUIT THE JOB OF PROTECTING THE KING BUT HE DID MAKE A REQUEST CONCERNING THE JOB HE HAD TO PERFORM IN PROTECTING AND WATCHING OVER THIS KING in VERSE 18

    Verse 18 In this thing the LORD pardon thy servant, that when my master goeth into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leaneth on my hand, and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon: when I bow down myself in the house of Rimmon, the LORD pardon thy servant in this thing.

    Verse 19 And he said unto him, Go in peace. So he departed from him a little way.

    SO YOU SEE THE PROPHET ELISHA FORGAVE HIM, he gave him pardon knowing that it was a task that he would continue to perform because of the job that he had, that of protecting the King of Syria.

    In such a circumstance as your family, I believe the Lord will forgive you as he did Peter. Peter not only denied him, but he cursed out the 3rd person who asked him if he knew Christ also, yet Christ forgave him (Peter) and asked him 3 times if he loved him, and each time Peter said yes, and the Lord established his commission, go feed my lambs, my sheep. In other words go preach the gospel to my people.

    Remember man looks on the outer appearance , but God sees your heart, and he knows that we have weak moments also, and He always has a ram in the bush (himself), when we need him most or when great tasks of faith confront us anyway. Go back and visit Abraham also, in the old testament, when he was asked to slay his only son by God to demonstrate faith. God had a way out.

    And God does not require nor does he get any glory out of human sacrifices that costs lives although sometimes it can occur, (Solomon says, there is a time and season for all things). But God does not necessarily require death to prove love for him, and yet because of the wickedness in the hearts of man it can occur. He gave his Son to prove his Love for us instead, and even his Son said no man took my life, I laid it down. The dead cannot praise Him (God). The sacrifice that God is referring to through his Son Jesus is for a transformed life, through the renewng of our minds according to Romans 12:1 & 2.

  28. Pastor Foster, I see where you’re coming from.

    I believe Mordecai’s deliberate wisdom to conceal her identity(faith) helped her to get into King Ahasuerus court because she had a Jewish name of Hadassah and the name Esther which is Persian in origin. GOD gave her favour with the chief eunuch to the king. And GOD gave her favor with the king. Mordecai charged her to keep her identity(faith) top secret and he watched over her as a good pastor is suppose to.
    See:
    Esther 2:10-11 KJV
    (10) Esther had not shewed her people nor her kindred: for Mordecai had charged her that she should not shew it.
    (11) And Mordecai walked every day before the court of the women’s house, to know how Esther did, and what should become of her.

    That was wisdom/discernment inspired from the LORD to conceal her identity in my humble opinion. Because if that devil Hamaan had known, history might be a little different today concerning Queen Esther. Just my opinion.

    GOD bless.

    GCMW: Ok, Haman was a devil for real!

  29. According to Hebrews 11 the saints of old were often killed for what they believed. It is a very real possibility that these things could began to happen on a more regular bases in the U.S. Just like the Pastor who was recently shot dead in the pulpit. Notice how little media coverage it received? Nobody really made a big deal out of it at all. What we all must come to grips with in the US is that that type of thing is not new in other countries where they are hostile against christanity. More and more, christians will become the target of violent crime simply because of who the christian represents. (Heb 13: 12-13) Says, Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, BEARING HIS REPROACH. If we bear his reproach, we must be prepared for suffering.

  30. In Acts, the christians hid from Saul. Were they ashamed of Christ? Christians met to worship in the catacombs in secret long ago when under persecution.Was it the right thing to do? This is a diffucult question .

  31. Hello, Brian:

    I’m thinking Matthew 10:16 in answer to your question(s).

    By the way, when the hammer of persecution really starts to fall, we men should be prepared to lead our “house churches.”

    Regards,
    Peter.

  32. enoch:

    thats right on point from what i can see out of it. in that regard i stand corrected. but i still see a difference in that when it came down to her making a choice she chose to risk her life to save her people. in the verses you offer she was being obedient as she always had. so her consciousness of the situation was not the same as denying christ under duress.

    but good word, i like this thread

    god bless

  33. theres still too many scriptures for us to reference that suggest otherwise in terms of our conscious denial of christ. sure we can be forgiven, but there’s no guarantee we’ll be given that opportunity. remember the two that tried to withhold from the apostles; they died immediately for their error.

    there is also a point of blaspheming the holy ghost who brings conviction to where god will not forgive any longer. denial of god leads to that. who’s to say one time especially after you profess christ wont be enough for god to toss you over to the devil. like you said, he looks on the heart.

    the scriptures im thinking of are:

    1 Corinthians 10:13 (god has the plan, stick to his solution)
    There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

    Matthew 15:11;18 (words come from heart so god is hearing heart by what you say)
    11. Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

    18. But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

    Romans 6:1-2;14 – 15 (no excuse for returning to sin)
    1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

    2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

    14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

    15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

    Matt 12:43-45 (condition of the backslidden, blasphemer)

    43When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.

    44Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.

    45Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

    2Peter 2:18-22 (condition of those who backslide, blaspheme God)

    18For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

    19While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

    20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

    21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

    22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

    god bless

  34. Amen Proverbs28nine. At the end of the Book Esther, when it came time for Esther to stand up for GOD and her people, and to reveal herself and make petition before her husband the king, yes she did not deny the faith nor deny her people at what I call the midnight hour. Esther confronted probably the Adolph Hitler of that time, Haaman. That took courage, boldness, and faith from ABOVE. She even said, if I perish, I perish. Esther 4:16 I believe every true believer will have to face these type of moments. It may not be as extreme as the situation Esther was in(right in the enemy’s camp) but on varying levels and degrees of intensity.

    I know a lot of people may not accept this, but if you go into the marketplace, job market, wherever unbelievers may be, certain genre’s, saying JESUS, JESUS, and attempting to proselytize people without wisdom/discernment, evil men will kick against the pricks and won’t even hear you and you will not enter into certain doors that GOD wants his people at. That’s where I say, leave that job to the Church leaders(the 5 fold). And if GOD wants you to witness to somebody at your job, your business, grocery store, the HOLY GHOST is well more than able to tell you what to say and do concerning ANY soul. Amen.

    For example, jobs/companies don’t hire you because you confess to be a Christian. They hire you because they believe you are qualified to do the job and you presented yourself as a top candidate. That’s wisdom. Are you denying HIM when we purposely conceal our confession? Not so, because your light will shine. As our LORD said, Be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.

    I agree too, this was an awesome discussion.

    GOD bless.

  35. Q: Why is it okay to deny Christ in this instance?

    A: Because they say they will kill my family, and I do not want o lose my family, so I’ll deny Christ with my mouth, but not in my heart, for God knows my heart.

    Fair enough? Let’s go to another level. Deny Christ or your hateful motherinlaw who is always tearing you down, and telling your wife you’re no good…will die. Isn’t it easier to say “I will not deny Christ” in this case?

    So we can quote scriptures and opine, but at the end of the day, we either go preference or principle.

    Do you know for a fact that the person will kill your family if you refuse to deny Christ? No, you don’t. You only have faith in their word that they said they will kill them. And you have a fear of losing your family.
    Questions: Who is God at that moment? the man with the gun? you? your family? What guarantee do you have that they will not kill your family after you deny Christ? NONE!

    And so it is the coming days of the mark of the beast. Yes, you need food and shelter to live, and God would not want you to starve to death by not taking the mark, right? Your asthmatic kid needs medication, and can’t get it without the mark, so God will understand, right?

    Have you considered though that you can take the mark of the beast, and still not get any food and starve to death? You kid can take the mark, and still not get his medication?.

    And the worst part is anyone who takes the mark, name or number of the beast will drink of the wine of the wrath of God and be tormented with fire and brimstone?

  36. lesha, you are bringing it on home! You say there is a bottom line and that is if you deny Christ for whatever reason, there is no promise from the evil person that they will do what they promised. Thus, your denial is in vain on all counts. Is that what you are saying?

    Also thanks to EW and P28. You both have raised sound responses and thanks for that. Im not discounting either. This kind of reminds me of death. No one wants to talk about the reality of death which is approaching each of us day by day. But it is surely coming. Why not go ahead and take the best self evaluation you possibly can and see where you stand. I dont think that persecution is an “if” issue, but simply when. Paul wrote that we have been given warnings in the scriptures and we should govern ourselves accordingly. For those who think they are so righteous they will escape, please be reminded that during times of persecution all suffered. God allowed the righteous to go into captivity right along with the disobedient. The redeeming factor was that the righteous REMAINED righteous even in the midst of persecution or bondage.

    Set your hearts now saints, get your mind made up and do not change it. With God’s help and grace no matter what comes, lets stay with him.

  37. This is a very thought provoking question that you have asked. Interestingly, my family and I have had this discussion – and all of us being saved, we have “purposed in our heart” that denying Jesus is not an option – regardless of the earthly price paid.

    I believe if I was put in that situation, and showed any hesitation in the presence of my family, that they would encourage me to stand my ground, even at their peril. We can’t have our tent pegs buried too deep here on this earth – it’s only temporary. I believe God gives grace in situations like this – and when one reads articles in The Voice of the Martyrs, where Christians have actually been put in this situation, you find that overwhelmingly they claim Jesus even when facing extreme retaliation.

    We American Christians are wimpy. I don’t want to face my maker having to admit that I denied Him after He’s done so much for me. In the flesh, I know I would be weak – but in the Spirit, with God’s grace, I know I would not deny Him.

  38. I haven’t read all the messages before posting this so if I’m repeating what someone else has said excuse me in advance.

    Phariseebuster: The Lords words were very clear about denying him………..
    Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

    When Peter denied him he had to be Converted…..

    Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

    So I think the scripture is clear and retains its integrity when you look at it in light of the point I just made, because to suggest that Peter could deny the Lord with no consequences and no change in status would make the foremost verse above null and void.

    Additionally, in regards to saving family members, please note Hebrews 11…………..specifically the persecution suffered by the men and woman of GOD, and even more specifically the refusal to accept release from torture because they look forward to a resurrection.

    Lastly, what are you saving you family from???………..aren’t we appointed to die? (or be changed-which is still the death of the flesh).

    I personally, have taught my wife and my girls that Death has NO sting if you’re in the Messiah!! Therefore if comes at 8 or 80 the point of this life is to submit until the will of the LORD!!!……………because he knows every hair, every sparrow………………and HE KNOWS YOU!

  39. My response to your initial question:
    No. Just as it is never right to do wrong, it is never “ok” to deny Jesus. But, forgiveness is available to those who sincerely repent and turn to God for help. When our circumstances drive us to forget the great power we have in the Holy Ghost, we are subject to deny Christ and commit many other horrible sins. But the Word of God is right:

    “…God is faithful, who will not suffer us to be tempted above that we are able…”.

    However, we are only as ABLE as we are SURRENDERED. It is easy to say and assume that we’re surrended and sold out for Christ when we’re not in danger of losing something precious, but our response to trials often reveal that we are not as surrendered and strong as we thought. With this revelation comes a call to repentance, a deeper surrender, and a greater dependence the Holy Ghost for strength to stand in the face of adversity.

    I know that there are many scenarios we can present where it looks like denial would indeed be acceptable, but we should only make exceptions where scripture does – even if it goes against what we call “common sense”. The Holy Spirit is a supernatural power to enable us to do uncommon feats. Since I’m not sure how I would do under certain kinds of pressure, I find myself crying, “Lord, have mercy on me, and fill me again!”

  40. I believe that we would do well to follow Daniel’s example.
    The bible saids that Daniel had “purposed in his heart…”

    also when he knew that the laws had been changed to work against him, the bibles goes on to say that When he KNEW, he still went and prayed WITH HIS WINDOW OPENED AS USUAL…”

    If we have already purposed in our heart that we will stand for God and die for God… there wont be a question.

    I have already purposed in my heart that know matter what, that for Christ I will live and for CHrist I will die.

    I work for an organization that at anytime the President could sign into law that ALL of its employees HAVE to affirm gays as acceptable lifestyle and also mandate and have us sign documents that we support that….

    when that time comes, I WILL NOT SIGN those documents. could Iose my job and my livihood as I know it? I sure could.
    I know this is not the same as losing your life but the principles are the same.

    But I have already purposed in my heart ….

    As born again believers, when it comes to this particular subject. Having these “what if” conversations let’s me know that some of us have still yet to “PURPOSE IN OUR HEARTS….”

    GCMW: Preach, First Lady Foster! That’s a excellent word.

  41. This maybe a little off, but I couldn’t help but think of another OT test. Would Abraham been so named as one with so great a faith in God if he had said,…Lord, you know I love you in my heart, so I don’t think I’ll be sacrificing the life of my son today.

    Also, how easy it could have been for Stephen and the other earlier saints to simply confess Christ “in their hearts” to save themselves from persecution. But they didn’t do it. We should be prepared to proclaim HIm unto death.

    I pray the Lord gives us all His grace to take it all the way, if or when this becomes necessary.

  42. I am new here, first time. But I could not resist this question. I am also new on fire for my Lord and Savior. I have always been a Christian, but have recently been filled with His beautiful Spirit, which makes me question why I did not devote all of my life before. I would have to answer this by saying that I do believe that we must not ever deny Christ, no matter what. If we look back through the Word, we see that those who did not deny Him, stood strong no matter what. When we read of past people who have died in persecution, we have to know that Christ Jesus was with them, just like He was with Daniel, Meshshack, Shadrack and Abednego. There are thousands of testimonies that show to us that Christ will be with us in our dark hour. None of us want to go through that and neither did Jesus or the ones who also died in His name. I just have to know in my heart that God keeps His promise and He will be with us. If we remain in Him, He will remain in us. He never promised to keep us from persecution, but to keep us through it. Life here on earth is short and means nothing, but eternity with Christ Jesus means everything.

    GCMW: Pam, welcome, welcome! Thanks for your comments and I do agree with everything you said.

  43. The question is: Is it ever any circumstance allowable, acceptable, etc to deny Jesus?

    The answer is: No

  44. voice of the martys published a story in their book about a pastor and 2 girls he had introduced to christ….they were all arrested and told to deny their faith….the girls denied, but the pastor gave in…he was ordered to shoot the two girls to confirm his denial…the girls thanked him for bringing them to christ and forgave him of what he was about to do…well, he shot and killed them….then the chinese(i think) shot and killed him…..so not only did he deny christ, but he murdered 2 of christs children, and had no time to repent becausse he was killed right after….so i say to you, stay strong and have faith in god and not in evil men filled with satans lies….no telling where the pastor ended up

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