800 attend bible and homosexuality discussion in Kalamazoo

This past September, people of varied perspectives gathered in this southwest Michigan town to discuss the bible and homosexuality. Most might assume instant fireworks and mass confusion, but accounts tell a different story.  While the divisions remained  fairly intact, it is a good thing that this discussion got out of the closet in this forum. The forum was led by six area pastors who argued for both sides of the issue (source: Kalamazoo News).

A young lesbian couple listened to the scriptural discourse seated beside an older married pair who shared a well-worn Bible between them.

One minister used the Bible’s book of Genesis to explain why God does not consider homosexuality a “mistake.”

Another pastor quoted the same passages to demonstrate why heterosexuality is God’s plan.

In the end, few minds were likely changed Monday night in a downtown Kalamazoo ballroom where more than 800 people heard a divided but civil discourse on what the Bible says on homosexuality.

Although the event was attached to an upcoming political initiative, it appeared to be a good thing to let people see and hear both sides and then make up their own minds about who is closest to the truth. Personally, anytime I have been invited to talk about homosexuality in a public/media forum (except church services), Ive always told hosts I have no problem sharing it with someone with opposing views. Im very confident in what I believe and feel fairly confident I can express that without acrimonious exchanges. I do though enjoy passionate debate and discussion.

A panel of six area pastors — three who believe same-sex relationships violate biblical teaching and three who say Scripture does not support that conclusion — spent two hours giving their perspectives and answering questions posed by the audience and each other.

But all three ministers who argued homosexuality is a Biblical violation called for, as Byl put it, “a church that doesn’t shut down those who struggle with this sin.”
“God is grieved by how the Christian church has handled this issue,” said the Rev. Dr. Jeff Porte, of Kalamazoo’s Third Reformed Church. “We’re sorry for the way we have treated the gay community and people who find themselves challenged.”
But Porte said he also is obliged to “speak the truth” and call homosexuality a sin.

“For us to fail to tell the truth is one of the most dangerous places we can be,” Porte said.

The Rev. Jim Lucas, chaplain of Grand Rapids-based Gays in Faith Together, said that as a gay man, he has “prayed for God’s spirit to guide me on this issue.”
“I have come to the conclusion that the church’s traditional teaching is wrong,” Lucas said. “It must be wrong. A small percentage of the human race, by no choice of our own, is attracted to the same sex. I believe God honors committed life partnerships for gay couples.”

A good idea or a bad idea? If youre a pastor, would you participate in a forum like this? And for the African American community we really need to have forums like this without all the usual grandstanding among preachers that occurs. Sorry, had to say that.

Atlanta, you may be next.

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37 thoughts on “800 attend bible and homosexuality discussion in Kalamazoo

  1. Pastor Foster, hope you’re doing great. First of all, I want to let you know how much I enjoy reading your blog and how I appreciate your couragious Christian leadership and your maturity. It is rare in this time and age. I’m not trying to puff you up or anything but it’s true. I’ve never posted on this blog before but I’ve been meaning to. This blog is one of tools God used to get me back on fire for him. I’m not gay and I’ve never been gay. I don’t even remember how I came across your original website (the former one) but I tell you, if you are ever tempted to feel discouraged, DON’T! God will reward you for every soul that is won for Christ and every Christian you help to bring back into fellowship with him. Just wanted to share that.

    In regards to the post, I have to say, as I was reading about this event, something just did not feel right in my spirit. I honestly sense that this is not a Holy Spirit sanctioned event. It just seems like this is an opportunity for more lies to be spun about the Bible. Are gays really going to be helped by attending these events, having their minds confused by “gay christians” who tell them one thing and Christians saying another thing, all from the same Bible? If I was gay and attended an event like this, I would leave confused or unchanged. It’s kind of like the symposiums we have at my law school where a conservative and a liberal speaker are invited to give their side of the same issue. People mostly leave with their minds unchanged. But anyway, maybe there is a chance that the power of the Gospel preached will be planted into some hearts. One can only hope. Just my humble take on things.

    God Bless!!

  2. Next we’ll have a gathering of thieves and debate as to whether or not the bible forbids theft. This is ridiculous because the teachings of scripture are crystal clear on this issue.You cannot debate people who are not in search of truth.The homosexual movement desire a platform for no other reason than to try and convince the world and the church that even God cannot change them.(Pretty arrogant ideology).In order for us to have good godly dialouge there must be an agreement in the basic premise of a love for and desire of the truth of God.This is the oldest trick in the book,man justifying and rationalizing his sin instead of repenting.

  3. Jesus sat with sinners because they asked him to. What do you think they discussed, the weather? Evil communication corrupts good manners. These people didn’t come for the truth. They came to try to change the believers minds. When we refuse to be bolder with what we believe and play pattycake with these people nothing is going to change. They must be told that they have to repent and come to God through Jesus the Christ. I wouldn’t want to have an open forum with them because they are reprobate and are not going to change. The bible tells us about these people in the last days and we are living in the last days. We must accept that the Word of God says that some people will be given over to a possess a reprobate mind and that is what’s going on. Not one person saw the truth and changed, doesn’t that tell you something. When Jesus spoke there was a change. We are at the end now and people are choosing their permanent master and most are NOT choosing Christ.

  4. One of our duties as believers is to deal with alternate views that are hostile to the Christian faith. In fact, this is a part of the warfare that we are engaged in as believers (2 Cor. 10:3-5). As such, those of us who are well-informed, as well as spirit-filled need to participate in these types of public forums.

    2 Corinthians 10:3 – 5 (NRSV) Indeed, we live as human beings, but we do not wage war according to human standards; 4 for the weapons of our warfare are not merely human, but they have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments 5 and every proud obstacle raised up against the knowledge of God, and we take every thought captive to obey Christ.

  5. Im going to go against the comment grain a little and agree with you COGIC Brother. I think this is a good thing. It would have been different if all the pastors were progay. To me that would suggest that they wanted no opposing voices. But this was split evenly and everyone’s voice was heard. I think we should be out talking about this without rancor and with a convincing witness, even if we suspect no one’s mind will be changed. We dont preach or witness only if we are assured of someone’s change, but because we are commanded to do so.

    To aderonke, thank you so very much. I humbly thank you for your words. While I dont know the specific demographics of this blog’s readers, I think it would be safe to say the majority are just like you. Although homosexuality is our main topic most of the time, it really is about affirming the authority, truth and power of God’s word towards us as we face an onslaught of challenges to our faith. Please feel at home whether you disagree or not. Blessings!

  6. I’m really starting to become disgusted with those that introduce secular opinions that have a foundation of sand, only to justify their wants. People it is so important for us to embrace the temptation response. As in what Jesus told
    Satan whenever temptations were presented. He always responded “It is written……”.

    What’s my point? We have to know the word! If not, we will be swallowed up by the novice’s opinions, while being casualties of deception and faulty advice of those bound and determined to do it their way. I call these “Frank Sinatra(a term that I use lightly)”, who was known for singing and doing things his way!

    We need the scriptural approach to all areas in life, while knowing the difference between what’s prescriptive and
    what’s descriptive. So that at the end of the day our race wont be run in vain, having taken all carnal approaches
    to the detriment of our eternal souls.

  7. I think these conferences, meetings are bad Ideas. Reason being these people knowing the truth reject it. I think the bible should be debated between believers if an area of scripture is not fully understood but I cannot agree with debating with people who claim to know Christ who flat out reject truth.

    Christ had stern rebukes for people like this not sweet conversation.

    I also dont think that the II Corinthians 10 scripture has anything to do with trying to change the mind of those who reject Gods word? they are sinners and need Christ – sinners cannot undertsnd the things of God. I believe that scrpture is saying when an issue arises we tackle it in order to keep the church sound. Any arguement that comes against the knowledge of Christ is torn down by scripture, not debated about with sinners.

    My thoughts.

  8. Paul, et al, thanks for your remarks. Consider if you will:

    1. Stephen debated with the pharisees, Cyrenians, Alexandrians, and men from Cilicia and Asia eventually ending in his martyrdom. Acts 6:9
    2. Paul debated in Athens with Greek philosophers and “his spirit was stirred within in”. Acts 17
    3. Jude said to “contend earnestly” for the faith vs 3
    4. Be ready to give and answer to every man who ask of thee according to the hope that lies within you. 1 Pet 3:15

    Im sure there are other examples of why as believers we must take our beliefs and faith into the public and contend with those who do not believe.

    Im not sure I see where biblically we are only supposed to witness/talk to people based on us knowing beforehand whether they will reject or accept our words.

    The use of debate in defense of the gospel (apologetics and polemics) is to break down the fallacy of the carnal arguments. In fact we engage in that on this blog whenever the occasion arises.
    It seems a little shortsighted my brother to only talk to people who already will agree with what you have to say.
    We have nothing to fear from people who tell lies, if we are confident in the truth.

  9. This is not the time to talk about hearing everyone’s heart. The people against homosexuality already knew their hearts before they got there and vice versa. Nothing was accomplished at that forum because no one repented and turned from their wicked ways. They came and left the same. As I said before, when Jesus spoke you saw a change. These people know the truth and they are not going to accept it. What is going to happen is that more churches are going to fall in line with this homosexual, all inclusion form of teaching that is going on. Remember I said it. The Great Falling Away Today.

  10. Pastor, let me read these verses get back at you.

    I am not being shortsighted in my veiw, or not trying to be at least.I dont remember seeing where there were debates with people who knowing what the bible says reject it. Again let me take a read and I will comment further.

    Thanks!!

  11. When Paul the Apostle debated/argued before King Festus, he was so convincing that the King said that Paul almost made a believer out of him.
    That is an example of where we Christians need not fear honest and open debate with anyone for God will give you what to say when the need arises (presuming that you have studied the Word of God upon which he can bring up at that time).
    King Agrippa (Acts 26) was a sinner yet Paul “took him on” and gave him enough of a witness that the King almost allowed the Holy Spirit to convict him of his sinful nature. The King fought the conviction wooings of the Holy Spirit and sinful man does the same thing today.
    When debate comes, and you do not know the right answer…not a problem…go find it and contact that person (if possible) or simply give your testimony and let God do the rest.
    The essence of witnessing is this: Go in the power of the Holy
    Spirit and leave the results to God.
    It is not about you or your “skills set.” It is about you making
    a wedge entry so that the Holy Spirit can do his convicting work.
    Once you show homosexuals where in the Word of God that God has
    condemned such activity, you have started your job and when you show them God’s remedy for their sins,you have done your job.

  12. I do understand the objections to forums like the one in Kalamazoo, but if the Holy Spirit gave me the approval I would definitely jump in. Im not sure how someone can say never and no one when we sometimes are not privy to the workings of the Spirit. Salvation does not always occur at the first instance of hearing the truth.

    And just so we dont get the wrong impression of debate here’s the definition (wikipedia explains it more fully than dictionary):

    Debate or debating is a formal method of interactive and representational argument. Debate is a broader form of argument than logical argument, which only examines consistency from axiom, and factual argument, which only examines what is or isn’t the case or rhetoric which is a technique of persuasion. Though logical consistency, factual accuracy and some degree of emotional appeal to the audience are important elements of the art of persuasion, in debating, one side often prevails over the other side by presenting a superior “context” and/or framework of the issue, which is far more subtle and strategic.

    See also syllogy and dialectics. Romans 1-8 was written in syllogic form culminating in Romans 8:28.

    Lafe, I agree with what you said and that in my opinion is what the scripture means when it says in 1 Cor 3:5-9 There is planting (us), watering (us) and growth (God). Some of us have more expertise in a particular issue and with the Spirit’s anointing (and some other factors) they work together towards an effective and powerful witness to the truth regardless of the naysayers.

    I think no matter how hard a person’s heart is, no matter how adamant they reject the gospel, no matter how dead set they are against the truth, there is something supernatural about the Truth which pierces the hard hearts and in time works to bring about salvation. We never know who or when, but our job is to be that instrument (in whatever vocal context) which precedes the increase of God.

  13. Scriptue says they are dead in their sins, therefore they will never understand. Pastor Foster, I must agree with both Paul and Nan, and add that, they will never understand as long as they are practicing homosexuals and believe they are right. THEY USE THE INCORRUPTIBLE WORD OF GOD TO JUSTIFY THEIR IMMORAL BEHAVIOR. How can Genesis be used to justify homosexuality? HOW?

    WHAT THEY NEED TO HEAR IS THE PURE GOSPEL, by hearing some just MIGHT become convicted and repent. Discussing anything but Jesus Christ and Him crucified with the unregenerated is pointless,they do not have the ability to understand. I am not trying to be unkind, this is a fact. Jesus even spoke in parables to hid the truth from unbelievers Mark 4:10-12

    John 10:25-27
    25. Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26. BUT YOU DO NOT BELIEVE, BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT OF MY SHEEP, AS I SAID TO YOU. 27. MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE, AND I KNOW THEM AND THEY FOLLOW ME.

    We must extend true love to the homosexual community, as well as anyone that wilfully practices sin, but we cannot condone their behavior or we would be found guilty, Rom.1:32. They need to hear the gospel preached and nothing else, only it has the power to change them. Only it, used by the Holy Spirit will do the job. Our emotions towards them cannot change or save.

  14. Here’s my 2 cents…

    I have read all of the previous comments on this particular issue, with each having valid scriptural merits. But I feel the need to bring a point of balance to the discussion. I Corinthians 3:6-7 talks about one planting, another watering, and GOD giving the increase. We need to consider that those ministers who chose to participate in this event did so under the premise of Philippians 1:15-18 (Christ is proclaimed, no matter what the personal motive!) We can’t be so naive to think that NO ONE out of that crowd of 800 HEARD the TRUTH snd SURRENDERED to CHRIST! The reporters/bloggers can’t follow everyone home and track their spiritual yielding or resistance. We don’t know who went home & wrestled with what they heard & fell under the convicting power of the Holy Spirit behind the closed doors of their domiciles. I’m not endorsing or condemning the event, but simply saying that we as believers HAVE to TRUST that GOD IS SOVEREIGN, and able to save to the utmost…even when it doesn’t appear to us that HE is! Again…just my 2 cents 🙂

    Grace & Peace!

  15. Brief…It is a looong story.

    I thought I was saved on and off, since I was about 9 yrs old. I grew up with my father, who even on his death bed rejucted Christ. I went to church with neighbours. There was no fear of God in my home so, I never stayed in the church long. Different churches, SDA and others.

    I began going back to church when I was about 29yrs old and I tried, but could not abstain from having sex. I was going to church but, I WAS NOT BORN AGAIN. I kept this up for a long time, using everything to justify my sin. The churches I attended were “holy ghost, speaking in tongues” churches, but they did not know I was having sex and not married, I was on the choir at one point, I was able to fake it.

    I began going to a charismatic church, stop having sex about 8 yrs ago? Was I saved? I don’t think so, I was just ashamed to be a “christian” and be sneaking around having sex and I wanted to be a good example to my daughter. I studied the bible but still did not see biblical truth.

    I began reading the blogs just under 3yrs and realised how far from the truth I was. I finally understood what the gospel is and meant for the first time in my life. It was then that I began understanding scripture, scriptures that I heard, read and thought I understood before. It was them that I really understood who The Most High God is, it was then that I found out that Jesus is God, it was then that I found out I was a wretch and understood the full and complete price he paid for me. It was then I understood the beauty of my Savior, it was then that I understood how to be broken before a holy God, and repented.

    I am a 46yr old single mother, (one daughter), who has been going to church for probably a total of 20yrs, but have been born again only under 3yrs.

    The gospel made the difference in my life.

    I know you said brief, sorry I had to give you the background.

  16. wow, that’s beautiful. You know what I dont want to make my point. thanks for sharing how the Lord has brought you close to Him. I have been reflecting on my own redemption and just how much –after 20 years– I still need the Lord. Like a little child, I rely on his help and provision. God bless you and stay close to him.

  17. To God be the glory. I am just amazed that He chose me. The “church” did not do it, “christians” did not do it, only the Almighty through the gospel, in His due season.

    Thank you Brother Foster for allowing me to share.

  18. Can I just say this one last thing. As a result of this, evangelizing is so important to me, becasuse I am proof that the gospel makes the difference. Not everyone will get it, but God knows who will.

  19. Paul N – The 2 Cor. 10 reference was given in order to show that spiritual warfare includes intellectual aspects, such as destroying arguments and other ideas that come against the knowledge of God. Moreover, we have an obligation to defend the faith with gentleness and respect as well (1 Peter 3:15). Also, the word translated “defend” here is apologia, which has legal nuances. Incidentally, we have an obligation to defend our faith, regardless of the response of others.

  20. Rascoe1 – I want to challenge something here – they will never understand because they are practicing homosexuals and believe that they are right…Carrying this to its logical conclusion would mean that they would not understand the “pure gospel,” even if it was presented to them because they are still practicing homosexuals (i.e., they are in an unregenerate state); hence, they could never experience conviction that leads to repentance and faith in Christ. This logical conclusion does not seem to square with Scripture.

  21. Holiness1st – I agree with you when you stated the following, “We can’t be so naive to think that NO ONE out of that crowd of 800 HEARD the TRUTH snd SURRENDERED to CHRIST!” We also need to consider the time element that may be involved as well. I certainly did not surrender to Christ when presented with the gospel for the first time. In fact, it was many years later. As such, instantaneous decisions may not be the most reliable kingdom metric, so to speak!

  22. The broader point I would make (and this is not just applied to homosexuals) is what makes them different than you when you were in your regenerate state, not believing the gospel with a carnal mind? At some point, you DID believe the truth and repented. But that is the grace of God not of your own doing. That opportunity to hear truth is a grace act, regardless of the person’s spiritual state.

    The other thing that’s pertinent is the attendees were from the community. Its not accurate to view this event as a gathering of solely unrepentant homosexuals or solely sinners. Although the article led off with the lesbian couple, there’s no indication they were a majority or even there in great numbers.

  23. COGIC Brother, Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, FOR IT IS THE POWER OF GOD TO SALVATION FOR EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES, for the Jew and also the Greek.

    My brother, this is the tool that is used. Salvation is a mystery, a wonderful God given gift. The Holy spirit does the work in us. As believers our responsibility in the whole salvation process is to spread the gospel.

    A person that is unsaved is dead in their sins, it takes the Holy Spirit to raise that person from the dead, at the point of salvation. Then He, The Holy Spirit begins the process of regeneration/change in that person. Any one who lives a life of wilful sin, and justifies it, is unregenerated. They CANNOT understand the scripture. The scripture is written to and for believers.

    Therefore trying to reason biblical truth to such a person will not be beneficial. This person need to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ.

  24. Rascoe1 – I agree with Romans 1:16. Moreover, I agree that the process of salvation has some mysterious aspects as well. Moreover, it is our responsibility to spread the gospel; however, we can not neglect the fact that we are charged with defending the faith as well (1 Peter 3:15) – this includes sharing with others why we believe what we believe (reasoning). As such, we can not neglect the use of our intellect, which is a God given faculty. Although are faculties are marred by our fallen state, they were not obliterated – we can and do have the ability to understand many things, even if that understanding is limited. By this I am not saying that an unregenerate person has a profound understanding of the things of God. In fact, many believers do not seem to exhibit this deep understanding as well, but that is a story for another day. Finally, there are many people who have come to the faith after reasoning with others. Reasoning through biblical truths eliminated some of the intellectual barriers that stood in some unbelievers way of accepting the gospel message. As such, one can not necessarily conclude that reasoning is not beneficial.

  25. I believe there is an inacurate division of the word of truth in this instance. Yes the apostles often debated,but we cannot ignore the context of those debates. It was to reveal Christ to the jews as well as the greeks which up to that point was a mystery to the human race.God’s attitude towards the sin of homosexuality as well as any other willful act of disobedience is not a mystery.Paul in his address to the men of Athens told them that in times past God winked at the ignorance of the heathen nations,but now commands that all men every where repent. What this is a case of is false teachers who’s intentions are to subvert the faith of all who will receive their doctrines of devils.WE do well to focus on the scriptures that outlines our response to false teachers.

  26. My brother COGIC Brother, wisdom hunter said it, Pauls address was TO REVEAL CHRIST. Debating with a person who loves their sin and justifies the sin is pointless. God can use any means by which to save. He comissioned us to preach the gospel. As we preach the gospel, we point out first how offensive sin is to our Holy God, how good and just He is by sending our Redemer, instead of killing us all and how perfectly wonderful it was for our Redeemer to come and willingly lay down His life for His enemy. That’s all we need to do, in addition to walk holy and love as our Savior told us to. He will save who he choose.

    We might end up disagreeing on this point, but love you my brother.

  27. “God’s attitude towards the sin of homosexuality as well as any other willful act of disobedience is not a mystery.”

    wh, homosexuality has always been a transgression of the will and intent of God, it didnt start on Mars Hill.

    Also, you have to not ignore the context of the article where the conversations started from.

  28. Rascoe1 – You are right. I do not agree with several of the conclusions that you have drawn, but I have certainly enjoyed our exchange. In point of fact, before discontinuing our dialogue, I want to add two more cents!

    The primary purpose of Paul’s debates is not in question; however, the issue that we are “debating” here is one of methodology. Moreover, we can consider some additional questions, such as, are we called to defend our faith? Yes. Does this often include some form of debate/argumentation? Yes. Does Scripture provide us with examples of this? Yes. Pastor Foster has outlined several biblical texts in his previous posts.

    Incidentally, I am not arguing that one necessarily becomes a Christian through the process of debating; however, a well delivered defense of one’s beliefs can be (and often is) a part of the evangelism process.

  29. COGIC Bro, that’s a fairly good summary.

    1. Im not arguing for debate per se, but for any avenue God uses to get his Word to the heart of a person. Certainly debate should be included as a legitimate avenue should God choose it.
    2. Every proclamation (in whatever format) of the Gospel is does not necessarily save a soul. God sends his word out to accomplish what ever he pleases. We dont fully comprehend 100 % of the time what it is that he “pleases”.
    3. The forum in my opinion was good because it allowed all views to be publicized and having them side by side people can choose which to believe. I draw that from Ezekiel 30:19 where God says see I have set before you this day life and death, the blessing and the curse, therefore choose ye…

  30. How should false teachers be dealt with according to scripture?

    GCMW: Paul, this seems to be a really good detailed answer to your question.

  31. Im happy that such an event took place…but I don’t believe these events are designed to change someone’s mind but more about education…part of the reason I come to this site a lot is so that I can learned what the other side is saying..I respect Pastor Foster and others like him..and some of the posters on this site; I enjoy learning and listening to others even if I disagree with them…

    There is nothing wrong with listening to one another….sharing thoughts…asking questions….challenging one another….

    The issue of homosexuality will most likely be debated until Christ return…at the end of the day….when he returns…”what we know or think we know will be done away with”…1 Cor. 13….at the end of the day…we must respect and Love one another…so if by attending events like this..people have more respect for each other..and can walk away strengthen in their faith/beliefs…then why not gather like this?

  32. I don’t understand why some see this meeting in Kalamazoo as a bad thing. I don’t know the exact make-up of the audience, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there were some folks (maybe 2 or 3) in the audience who left with the seed of TRUTH planted in their heart and mind. Even if there were hundreds of people there and yet GOD turned the heart of one confused/wayward individual to embrace HIS WORD and eventually accept Salvation in Christ Jesus, then the angels in heaven rejoice, right?

    The gay movement and all the liars involved in it (not everyone is knowingly twisting the Word, but some are purposely “editing” the Scriptures to fit their lifestyles and stubborn refusal to submit to GOD) get on my nerves, too.

    But how does this platform fit any anti-Christian agenda when everyone on both sides were allowed in a civil manner to share the Word of GOD? Does the fact that one person insists on wrestling with the irrevocable Word of GOD somehow make the Scriptures untrue? That’s been going on since the Law was laid down to Moses.

    Fortunately, there is only one Holy Bible so both sides had to use the same Book. Just like Jews who acknowledge Messiah Jesus of Nazareth contend with Jews who don’t and and use the same text (OT) to show how the other is in error. Yes, some Jews may seem firm in their minds about Jesus of Nazareth most definitely not being the Christ, but boy, if such a civil forum was held on this particular subject for Jews divided over the divinity of Jesus, I firmly believe GOD would have added one more to HIS Book of Life.

  33. (Lavrai) The reason why I believe this particular forum is a mistake,is that it legitamizes individuals who have no intentions of submitting to the unmistakably clear teaching of scripture. (2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine;but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers,having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth,and shall be turned unto fables). Any group of people who seek to justify homosexuality through the scriptures has obviously forsaken the endurance of sound doctrine. I do agree that God’s word does not return unto him void,and when the truth is preached something glorious always happens,but it still doesn’t mean that we should knowingly cast our pearls before swine and give that which is holy unto the dogs.

  34. Hm, I think it’s true that a sophomoric reading of the scriptures would say that homosexuality is a sin. However, that is not what it actually says. I don’t really know about the “New Testament.” I’m Jewish, so it doesn’t really concern me. However, I’m curious if you speak / read Hebrew. Do you? If you do you’ll note that in fact it does not say homosexuality is a sin but rather anal sex is a sin. This is why every Jewish sect – including the most stringently Orthodox – admit that homosexuality is not a sin. It definitely cannot be a sin when it is not a choice. Again, homosexuality is a predetermined disposition that cannot be changed or chosen. Therefore, the most stringent claim that homosexuals should remain celibate (although, even this ruling is now beginning to change). However, to just say homosexuality is immoral is really elementary. Furthermore, when looking at the historical context in which the torah sits – it would make sense that anal sex would be prohibited. At the time it was used as a way to assert one’s dominance over another people whom one has just conquered, or is hoping to subjugate / oppress. This use of power is immoral and is still used throughout the world. Specifically I’m thinking of the Congo where boys are currently being raped as a sign of dominance and humiliation within tribal wars. This is immoral. The torah was not looking at the idea of two men sharing a committed loving relationship. If it had I am sure it would have called it good. It always calls love good.

    In the end you have to ask yourself if you think G-d is just and good. Do you really think G-d would have made homosexuals with a predisposed attraction toward the same sex if He were then going to just send them to hell? What would we say about G-d if He did that with left handed people or red headed people or people with birth marks? Homosexuality is not something one chooses and I think this must be where your confusion lies. The fact is that you have been taught by a church somewhere that homosexuality is inherently wrong. I do not want to make too many assumptions so I will end my spiel here. The point, however, is that: A. Homosexuality is a not a choice and B. The Bible (at least the first half of your Bible) does not prohibit Homosexuality.

    I hope you learn to read Hebrew and Greek so you can read the Bible in its original language. Until you do that you are relying on a translation which is in itself an interpretation which is subject to socially constructed prejudices.

  35. Frederick, the great majority of the gospel and God’s commands are so simple even a fool would find it hard to err. Your tortured disdain of its intended simplicity says a lot about you, not God or his word. In fact Jesus said the gospel was “preached to the poor”. That would include the uneducated and those who didn’t have the resources to read, comprehend, decipher and regurgitate “greek and hebrew” in its original language. Jesus had little use for elitism is teaching the will of God.

    Thus, your requirements are foolish and would exclude many people from receiving God’s word. Which of course is exactly part of satan’s grand scheme.

    God is omniscient and his level of supernatural intelligence is not even remotely attainable by humanity on its very best day. Thus, his word given to us is not to be parsed and compartmentalized to justify our failures and disobedience, but received with faith knowing that he has determined what is right and good. You (and your trite intelligensia) fail miserably to circumvent that.

    However, if you are right that it is anal sex which is a sin, not “homosexuality”, logically speaking you have made God’s case for him. If what you say is true, it is within itself, condemnation enough to warrant any person accepting God’s way to turn away from it. That’s a concession in its most narrowest form. The problem comes in when you start superimposing your prejudicial rendering of why anal sex was engaged in. Which according to your guesstimate is “subjugation/oppression”.

    So now that its not used by the great majority of self identified homosexuals as a tool of “subjugation and oppression”, reason would dictate that they abandon such a devaluing expression of sexuality. Wouldnt you agree because what you are saying is that based on past history, people who engage in anal sex are doing so to subjugate and oppress another.

    God condemned —and Jesus confirmed that condemnation— all sexual activity outside of the male-female marriage covenant. He made no exceptions for culture, historical context, law, emotion, longevity or mutual consent among participants. NONE.

    Finally Frederick, your educated foolishness is showing like the king with no clothes on. The Torah didnt “look at the idea of two men sharing a committed loving relationship” because such an idea was already from the beginning known by God’s people to be an abomination. Why would God include such contradictory ideology in his word to begin with? Youve already made too many assumptions of the worst kind and they don’t include what we believe about homosexuality, but rather the origin of that belief. Primarily in the fact that you assume God made homosexuals as such. Based on your predisposed lie, you then craft an opinion which attempts to nullify and sully the reputation of God himself. Your statement portends that God isnt wise enough to make humanity and set his laws clearly.

    That trick has already been played and we know who played it, why and what will happen to him.

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