I found this mind numbing. And this is astonishing.
AIDS, is still a deadly disease which is largely caused by immoral choices based on lies. If an effort to remove the “stigma” of AIDS, the spin now is that getting AIDS is actually a good thing. According to the cheery testimonials having HIV/AIDS can make you more sociable, interesting, and likeable. And don’t forget you are sure to become “comfortable with yourself”. If you want popularity and tons of friends, just get AIDS.
What a nauseating abomination.
Keith Green (in the 2nd ad) is a trainer at an AIDS organization in Chicago. On his relationship with God:
I don’t attend a church right now. I have this very weird Joan of Arcadia relationship with God — I don’t know if you’re familiar with that show. I feel as if God talks to me all the time, sometimes in a masculine voice, sometimes in a feminine voice. But I can always distinguish when it is God and when it is my ego — because, you know, they can sound alike. I feel that we have a very good working relationship, in which there are some things that I accomplish for Him and there are some things that She does for me. I wake up in the morning and talk to God in the shower, and it’s a very real “You know what, I feel like crap today. Can we do something about it?” kind of thing.
I think that all started when, despite what the church might say, I questioned God. I was 17 or 18 years old, wondering how in the world something as big as HIV could come into my life, and how God could allow for all these atrocities in the world — poverty and young children being abused sexually, physically, and emotionally, and wars. I just began to question God. And I got this smart-ass remark back in this very clear voice that I was sure was God, which simply said, “How could you allow it?” That kind of kicked off our relationship. I was like “Oh, that’s how you’re going to play! Okay, fine!” And that changed everything.”
Update: Mr. Green was emailed about an hour ago to ask about the ads. We will post his response when it comes in.
Update 1 17:06pm est: We have heard from Mr. Green. There was no professional response, nor one that would maturely explain the nature of the ads. Instead, he chose to send a response which amounts to very immature “go away and leave me alone”. It says in part:
it seems to me that you people would rather i sit around and be
miserable and wait to die as opposed to living my life to the fullest
potential that God has granted me…live your live[sic], GAY CHRISTIAN, and let me live mine! misery loves company and i REFUSE to join you in your pity party!
He completely ignored our question about the disturbing ads. I won’t allow him to have a comment in the discussion because he has demonstrated that he wouldnt be able to handle it.
Its difficult to fathom how some churches are actually partnering with people like Mr. Green to “educate” people about AIDS. And again he is on a “staff” at an AIDS organization. Its no big mystery then why the numbers continue to decimate people who are led into ignorance by those who proclaim to be “enlightened”.
Gay Christian Movement Watch 
I am sure that my teachers, friends, professors, colleagues and family members that perished from this disease through the last 35 years would say otherwise. Far from being sociable, interesting, and likeable, they by and large were shunned, and abandoned, or hid the truth until it was too late to get any help, or sunk further into depravity as a means of shaking their fists vainly at God This is disgusting, and my heart aches.
EBT
Im trying to trace the origin of the ads. I find it beyond reprehensible to portray such a deadly disease as desirable.
I have too talked with individuals in the final stages of AIDS…near death. They never would have said this. In fact, they wanted people to know it was a horrible thing to endure.
DL
I wonder:
1) Where did these comments come from? You offer no source for these comments.
2) What is the context for them? If these where comments around supporting people who have just learned they are infected, then they could make sense to me. I do know that people suffer much depression after learning they are infected. If these statements are in that context, I would understand.
3) Why did you post with out the above?
I just posted that I am trying to trace the source. Regardless of the context, to use them in an ad is inconsciable.
Who’s responsible for them? Currently unknown.
Is it possible your are upsaet because you put them into your own context rather than the context they had? In the right context those make sense to me. I am not offended by them at all. In fact, I would find them supportive to someone who has just learned they are infected and needed clarity as to how their life is now going to be.
The ads werent created by me.
There exists no context in which someone should be told nor should it be implied that a deadly disease is good for them.
That you arent offended only points to the fact that you have a different value system than I do. That’s your call, but I fail to see how telling someone AIDS can make a person more “sociable” helps them.
Isnt prevention still better than a cure or is that not applicable with AIDS under your value system?
My value system tells me not to make any real judgements about these until I know the context of the ads. BUt the ads do not say AIDS is good for people.
Look at it this way, what if these are the answers to a question like “Has the disease change you in any good ways?” If the point is to get people to focus on the positves of a life with HIV then it makes sense. EIther way, I am not going to judge it till I know all the information.
GCMW: Joe, You reserve the right to make judgments when you feel its appropriate. We have no problem with that. But I have that same right, wouldnt you agree? As a matter of fact, its a judgment (good, bad; right, wrong) of me to imply that I am improperly judging the ads based on my perspective and value system. So in that scenario, you have possibly already violated your value system which tells you not to make any real judgments until you know the facts.
have you not judge the ads without all the info?
You know divorced men me tell me they have a new outlook on life and a new social life they never had before too.
They seem to enjoy divorce more than the drudgery of having to reconcile.
Keith Green lived this kind of life according to that page:
So he was forsaking the commands of God, then he suffered a consequence. Then not knowing the One True God, he questioned the god of his mind and this god of his mind answered back. And now they have regular conversation. In his own world, he’s his own prophet, following a (as I’ve heard one supposed church in Atlanta claim) Father-Mother god.
So he’s following a false god of his fleshly mind and accrediting HIV with himself feeling “very good”.
This is the definition of a reprobate.
Just like Joe Brummer.
Jude 1:5-11 (New American Standard Bible)
Avoid those who forsake the commands of God through our Lord Jesus.
have you not judge the ads without all the info?
Joe, thats a fallacy that one cannot make any judgment without ALL the info. Do I need to see a man beat his wife to death before I can say that it is wrong?
I dont agree with the postmodern “thou shalt not judge” mantra. It has allowed too much evil to slide by unchallenged.
What I see from these ads, in whatever context, are purely evil.
I can see you feel upset and angered by the ads. I am assuming I am correct based on the information you have given. I am more curious than furious about these ads.
Okay, for giggles, what if a man did beat his wife to death. I still want to know why. On the surface, I am going to evaluate it as a terrible sad event, but I am still not going to say things are wrong or right. If the man was having a psychotic episode and he thought his wife was the devil, know it wasn’t wrong. It was sad. I would feel sad he didn’t get treatment, but I would not call him wrong or an offender, I would call him and his wife a victim of a mental disease.
Having all the facts is important and not a fallacy. It is good critical thinking.
GCMW: Again, Joe your worldview is distinctly different than mine. I dont need to “think critically” to see that there is nothing desirable about AIDS nor is it something that should be glamorized the way the two ads do. What if young impressionable teens see it and think that having AIDS is not so bad after all? The people who concocted these ads are complicit in murder. Its a crime to knowingly give someone AIDS and these ads are certainly bordering on that. You would think that in this age when AIDS prevention is such a national issue, the sheer irresponsibility to put this on the web would have been a deterrent.
oh, I see comment moderated. Do I scare you that much DL?
GCMW: Some comments —even some of mine— are caught in the spammer at times. Dont assume so quickly.
Sickness, disease, trials and tribulations can make us wake up and take life seriously knowing that our life is short and fragile.
The problem with the thinking of the advertisements is that there is a huge difference between suffering from cancer, asthma, kidney stones or for being a witness for Christ which are NOT a result of your sinful behavior in a gracious manner and facing the reality that what you are suffering is the consequence of your actions.
There is a huge difference between suffering because of the fall of mankind and suffering from your sin just as there is a huge difference between suffering because of your sin and suffering for the cause of Christ:
“For this finds favor, if for the sake of conscience toward God a man bears up under sorrows when suffering unjustly. For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.” (1 Peter 2:19-20)
What is so odd is that those who are infected with a disease which is the result of their sinful behavior (of course there are those who got their disease because of the sin of others via a blood transfusion) are now being treated as some sort of “hero” or role model for others.
Surely, this is just another sign of the depravity of their mind.
Here’s the question that was asked and his answer.
How has HIV changed you?
HIV made me question life. HIV made me question God. And it made me take on a whole new outlook. My life right now is very good, and I’m not sure I would be able to say that had HIV not entered into it, because it really made me explore who I am, why I’m here, and find purpose.
These ads do not glamorize HIV unless you take them out of their context. In context they are a positive person’s view on how the disease has changed them. Even bad things change people in good ways. Conflict causes us to grow.
I don’t see anything wrong with these. I suspect you do DL, because you want to.
The ads do not say Aids is good, nor do they say anything positive about getting aids. They say how in spite of something bad, something good has come. I admire that.
I am also bitter that you have written just another response to AIDS/HIV that says it is a result of behavior or sin. I value people seeing the truth. AIDS is caused by a virus. It is blind to who it infects. I feel scared knowing that misinformation and stigma continue in a day and age where millions are dying from a disease like this.
In your world view it is the homosexuals behavior killing people. In mine, it is the churches who are are preventing condom distribution, preventing safer sex lesson for students when they are young enough to have it embedded in their heads. It is churches and religion stopping people from getting the information about HIV/AIDS that would really save lives.
Joe, you need to get your lie straight.
First you argue that no one knows the context. You said dont judge until you have ALL the info. You wondered how I could even (gasp!) post this with having all the information.
Now guess what? You’ve decided (with no known context) that the ads are not glamorizing AIDS. How did you arrive at that not knowing the context and constantly warning us not to take it out of context?
We’re not going to get into what causes AIDS. Since youre not a Christain nor do you accept the Bible’s defintion of sin, then the conversation is off limits to you here.
You have violated your own admonitions and proven that hypocrisy isnt just limited to Christians.
The facts:
There was no ad campaign as you have claimed.
These are quotes from interviews taken out of context.
There is no spin, just someone asked a question and answering it honestly.
GCMW: Facts? With what evidence to support it?
The context comes from Mr. Green. I also emailed him and ask what this was about. He was happy to answer.
GCMW: Mr. Green must have a jeckel-hyde personality. His “answer” was childish at best. If this is what he told you, then his evidence is as shallow and misinformed as your prior assumptions.
His evidence? Evidence of what?
He replied to me and said, “I don’t know anything about this campaign. The quotes from me where taken from an interview that I did with thebody.com. From the looks of the site, it appears that they were taken way out of context.”
This tells me
No campaign exists. You yourself said you could not find the source of the ad. I doubt that because you have them, what source did you get them from?
DL,
where did you get these pictures and quotes? What website did you find them on? Please show me that you did not create this graphic yourself.
GCMW: Why sure, Joe. Of course. They came from this friendly, neighborhood gay site encouraging people to observe Black AIDS Awareness Day.
But Again, I have to correct your misinformation output. We never said there was any “campaign” nor did we imply there was any “campaign”. You did. Its called a strawman. Secondly, that he said it at all is reprehensible. It shows he is nothing more than the blind leading the blind.
Thanks DL, your source says everything I could want it to…..
Joe Brummer,
You remind me of a person who enters a florist shop and then is offended at the smell of roses. You are well aware of the purpose of this site. I am certainly not in a position to deter you from entering and blogging , nor would I want to but I wonder what you intend to accomplish. This is a Christ centered site that defends a traditional view of biblical human sexuality.
These ads or blurbs from the other site are in line with the idea of HIV being a gift,. In fact in some gay circles aren’t some people referring to HIV infection as a gift and having “Gift Parties”? In these parties all persons engage in unprotected sex in order to receive the gift of HIV infection. In so doing, they alleviate the tension and anxiety of the fear of becoming infected by having control over whenit happens.
The church is in no way preventing condom prevention. You and everyone else who intends to purchase them may do so without any stigma wherever they are sold. They are given away free in school nurses’ offices and planned parenthood centers all across this country and the world.
What some sgl people want is acceptance and allegience from the church regarding homosexuality and that is in many cases is not forthcoming. The church has not closed libraries, the internet, doctor’s offices, or any other place where info on safer sex info may be obtained.
Yes, AIDS is cause by a virus but it is spread primarily (I mean to emphasize PRIMARILY) through human behavior. That is not philosophical or religious either that is fact.
Elder Jimmy,
The church is most certainly stopping condom distribution in Africa and the Islands of the Caribbeans. Not sure why you are up on this, but please read up!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4081276.stm
Elder Jimmy, Joe is a reprobate that has been attacking Pastor Foster’s efforts for years. (I only speak of him this way because it’s been like this with him for years. He’s worked hard to earn what I call him.)
The light goes into the dark places and the darkness can’t comprehend it.
Everyone is so intent on defending his/her point in this, that you have resorted to name-calling and ridicule. I don’t understand why this always has to be a part of the argument. Yes, the ads – taken just as they are – are irresponsible. Perhaps in another context, they make sense. There are plenty of people who hit bottom and for whatever reason, see the light. Maybe that’s what having HIV was for this guy…
The truth is that HIV/AIDS is spread a number of ways and there are millions who contracted it simply by being born. Compassion goes a long way. Fingerpointing gets us nowhere.
I read the article and incidentally many others like it.
The church is opposing condom distribution not preventing it. The church is using their considerable influence to discourage it and the Poe have even condemned it but they are not preventing it. Condoms can yet be purchased in the places you have cited. Even catholics are using contraception and not abiding by the pope’s decrees.
The church is opposing condom distribution not preventing it.
Thanks for bringing this out. There is no active campaign in the church to prevent condom distribution. IF a person wants to use them, they are easily attainable. That does not mean that we should carte blanche support of condoms.
When a pastor preaches and teaches against sexual immorality, he or she is indeed addressing AIDS. The church critics are entirely unfair. I think that its because some of the pastors wont let these “AIDS educators” bring in their anti-biblical ideology into the house of God.
Melissa, you mentioned:
What is “the light”?
In this instance, “the light” to me means whatever caused him to start looking at life more positively…it means many things to many people.
Melissa that sounds real “new age-y” Like its trying to get around The Light, which is also The Way and The Truth. John 14:6
Are we supposed be glad and encourage people to take second best, alternative roads?
A “positive” life is not synonymous with a saved life.
Go to:
http://www.gaysandfascism.com/
Download “Exploding the Gay Myth Part 1 and 2” in pdf format.
In Part 1, pp. 78-91., we find the relevant research and statistics showing that gay-related sexual activities continue to be the MAJOR source of HIV and AIDS. When AIDS was first discovered in humans, it was found SOLELY amongst gay communities.
Vincent
Vincent,
I have spent some time today reading through the site for which you have posted a link. Wow is all I can say. I feel sad if that is your source of information on gays.
There could be some small amounts of information on the site that hold some truths, but for the most part, that site is pretty far from truth. It makes some claims that we can prove our factually inaccurate, especially about gays and the holocaust. I was moved by the misinformation there as I hold truth to be very important.
I would hope you would be willing to read such sites with a grain of salt.
The CDC affirms HIV/AIDS in the United States is overwhelmingly an issue among homosexual men.
The hope is that an AIDS vaccine could work at a rate of 50%. That would make researchers very happy. Take away homosexual male activity and AIDS in America would drop about 70%.
Minus about 70% of the people infected in America, this disease would not be spreading here anywhere as quickly as it has.
The medical community has so many FACTS about the spread of HIV/AIDS, that on blood donation questionnaires they ask a man if he’s been with another man with or without a condom and they ask women if any man they have been with has been with another man with or without a condom.
Now if someone wants to harp on the fact my comment time stamped February 15th, 2008 at 4:57 pm only speaks about men. You can check the facts FROM THE CDC.
Mostly men in America are getting HIV/AIDS, 74%! And most men are getting it VIA THE ABOMINATION KNOWN AS HOMOSEXUAL INTERCOURSE.
If we take the 74% of men and remove the about 70% getting HIV/AIDS via homosexual activity, the rate of HIV/AIDS in America still drops by over 50%.
Cut these numbers any way desired (and I can) and you still get a result that shows overwhelmingly that male homosexual activity is the #1 issue with AIDS in America.
You said, “Melissa that sounds real “new age-y” Like its trying to get around The Light, which is also The Way and The Truth. John 14:6
Are we supposed be glad and encourage people to take second best, alternative roads?
A “positive” life is not synonymous with a saved life.”
I knew that’s what you were looking for. My point is not to argue what is synonymous with what. My point is that perhaps the young man in the ad (or whatever it was) was simply trying to say that his experience led him to a better place in life. Saved or not, that could have been the purpose behind his statement.
Hi Joe,
As a medical practitioner, I think I can provide the statistics – if you want them. Well, I’ll do that later this/next week when I get the time … I have friends in the epidemiology specialty.
MSM and HIV are good friends 😉
Vincent,
Anyone can get the stats from the CDC. It sounds like you are feeling afraid and need to qualify that stats coming from you are legit because you work in the medical field. I could jump into that game too, but I won’t. The comments here have gone very off the original topic of the “testimonials” that DL posted and the meaning, source, and context. I feel sad that the only connections you have about gays and lesbians are sad, diseased and depressing. My experiences have been very different. Either way, I don’t want to be part of this newer conversation that has developed. Just the idea that HIV is a gay disease is not accurate. I could go back to some quotes from C. Evertt Koop from the height of the epidemic but I am sure most of us here are old enough to have lived through it.
Most gay men, the majority are not sex obsessed, promiscuous party boys. Studies on gay relationships show the majority of us are happy and faithful in our relationships and very healthy. I have never had an STI, I don’t have HIV, I have been 100% faithful to my partner of 8 years and see no time in the next 20 years where I would be dumb enough to risk the relationship I have over a momentary kiss.
On that note, I will wait for the next conversation to pop up but I won’t be in this one.
Melissa, you said:
Now assuming you know Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, are you saying your life was good or positive without Him, in the days before He saved you?
How is his life now better? He still does not have Christ. He’s claiming he has regular conversations with someone he claims to be God in his own head. Does the lake of fire have a cool mist section? This man’s life is hell bound still, not better. He still needs the Lord Jesus.
Joe,
Er … you have dyslexia or problems reading/understanding what I wrote?
Ad hominem non sequiturs, ad infinitum ad nauseam …
For example, see:
http://heapro.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/20/1/91
“The first cases of HIV identified in North America and in Europe were among middle-class, gay-identified men who were part of the gay sub-culture. The strong connection between sub-cultural institutions in Western countries not only provided international networks in which HIV could spread, but also ready-made structures, which could be utilized for prevention activities. For this reason, a majority of public authorities in the West began (often reluctantly) working with gay organizations to develop prevention initiatives (Rosenbrock et al., 2000).”
Or check out the Communicable Disease Control Handbook p. 177 on homosexuals, MSM and HIV/AIDS.
Wake up to the FACTS, Joe … or are you “afraid” to face them?
Also check out this book on how the “gay political agenda” forced the APA to de-list/remove homosexuality as a psychiatric illness from the DSM.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0691028370/ref=ord_cart_shr?%5Fencoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&v=glance
Joe Bummer,
I think that you are deluding yourself as many practicing homosexuals are apt to do. You claim that you are 100% faithful to your partner? Most self identified “gay” researchers and social commentators admit outright that the cheating rate of homosexual partnered men is 100% after 5 years, if they even stay together that long. So quit lying to us.
Were you aware Joe that the average lifespan of homosexual men is 20 years less than a heterosexual men? It’s 30 years if the homosexual man is HIV positive. Do you know why Joe? Because of anal sex. By engaging in homosexual intercourse with another man you are exposing yourself to immunosuppression caused by the other man’s semen entering your bloodstream. When your immune system keeps getting barraged like that it has a tendency to shorten your life Joe. Not to mention high rates of anal cancer.
I am only saying these things because you deliberately come onto a Christian website and spread misinformation. I actually feel sorry for you because I know that you suffer from a developmental disorder which has caused a masculine deficiency that you try to rectify through maladaptive homoerotic behavior. I suggest that you seek counseling to get to the root of the childhood trauma that caused this developmental disorder. May I suggest that NARTH can help you. Good luck to you. I hope that you find your way out of that deadly lifestyle.
Wow, what a difference a month makes! When I first read this post in February, I thought I was HIV negative and I didn’t know who Keith Green was. I thought the article was a little rough on Keith, but I was indifferent enough that I let it ride. It wasn’t my problem, so why rock the boat? One month later, I was diagnosed HIV positive. I thought I was handling it okay. All of my friends who are HIV negative thought I was doing great–they told me that my strength and my faith was an inspiration to them! I had to cheer them up and tell them that everything was okay.
But then guilt and self-condemnation crept in. A straight HIV positive Christian acquaintance asked me, “How do you justify the behavior that led to your infection?” I told him, “I don’t justify it.” A downward spiral of thinking ensued. I questioned my salvation. Was I really saved if I committed the behavior that led to my infection? I kept running up against attitude like this, quoted from above:
“What is so odd is that those who are infected with a disease which is the result of their sinful behavior (of course there are those who got their disease because of the sin of others via a blood transfusion) are now being treated as some sort of “hero” or role model for others.
Surely, this is just another sign of the depravity of their mind.”
and
“How is his life now better? He still does not have Christ. He’s claiming he has regular conversations with someone he claims to be God in his own head. Does the lake of fire have a cool mist section? This man’s life is hell bound still, not better. He still needs the Lord Jesus.”
Of course those kinds of things are spoken in ignorance, but if that’s all you’re being fed, you don’t know any better. So last week I decided to seek help and was thinking to myself, “Who was that HIV counselor in Chicago that DL raked over the coals a couple of months ago?” I dug this article out of the archives, emailed Keith Green, and eventually spoke with him on the phone. We had a good discussion on Christianity, homosexuality, and HIV. He listened to me and was careful not to interject his own beliefs unless I asked. He’s helping me find the help I need. God bless him mightily for that.
As for Keith’s quote: “HIV made me question life. HIV made me question God. And it made me take on a whole new outlook. My life right now is very good, and I’m not sure I would be able to say that had HIV not entered into it, because it really made me explore who I am, why I’m here, and find purpose.” I’m not where Keith is at, but I understand that HIV totally changes one’s outlook on life, not only because of the effect it has on one’s health, but also because of having to deal with and overcoming the stigma that’s attached to it. I didn’t understand this in February, but now I do.
As I was reading the blogs back in March to the present, when Pastor Foster wrote to me after I had written a blog about our son. I have some real opinions about the AIDS virus, and how it destroyed my son’s precious life.
I do not care what the gay acivists say or don’t say about the AIDS virus, I know first hand what can happen to a loved one who gets this virus.
I did not get to see my son before he died from AIDS, but in the medical records, I fread how he died, and it was one of the most tragic and horrific deaths from this deadly disease.
I have a lot of ideas how he came to suffer so badly, one of them being he was convinced to take Chinese herbal medicine. This caused him to have to suffer enourmous pain and devastation to his body. Russell would have lived a longer life with the anti-virla drugs, and we feel there was a reason he was convice to take the herbal way.
Russell was not perfect, but he was the type of person who would not put himself in a position to get this virus. He trusted the wrong person, and lost his life.
I want to tell everyone, this is nothing to play around with, and I don’t care how anyone says they are faithful to each other, there is no fidelity in a homosexual relationship. I think maybe I have heard of a 95%, but I doubt this.
I know Russell thought many times, he wished he would have listened to his parents. He had so much to live for, and this disease cheated him of this life. It was no fun, it was not love, it was indoctrination into a dark life of homosexuality. Those who disagree, have not lost a son or daughter, they loved so much.
Russell is always in our thoughts. We feel nothing but disgust for this homosexual lifestyle, and would love nothing more than to be able to convince these young kids about this deadly disease that killed our son.
These are not loving relationships!
Carolyn Groff