If there were any doubts that the gay christian movement has any credible association with true Christianity, read on. In a recent email to Christine at TalkWisdom, we submitted three reasons why the gay christian movement refuses to discuss scripture or use it in defense of their claiming biblical approval of homosexuality. (1)they are afraid to discuss it, (2) they hate what it says about their sexual choices, and (3) they know their false doctrine cannot be supported using scripture. As it turns out, we were right.
We have pointed out numerous times how the cookie cutter style comments of gay christians are devoid of scripture. While we believe that extra-biblical resources are welcome compliments to scriptural enlightenment, the line of acceptance is drawn when any resource conflicts with clear foundational teachings of the Bible. With that being said, and despite our critics charge of “bible worship”, even the average Christian accepts that the Bible is our blueprint, our “magna carta”. Therefore, Christians fully assimilate its language, concepts and principles into our vocabulary and more importantly how we live. But we don’t find this bond with God’s Word when it comes to the gay christian movement. But don’t be surprised, this is no mere coincidence.
Through Karen Keen, an Exodus associate who attended a portion of the ex-ex-gay conference sponsored by Soulforce and Beyondexgay, we learned that the order to refuse scriptural engagement with “conservative Christians” came directly from one of the movement’s top leaders. On her blog Pursue God, Keen writes a bittersweet account of the experience. Among other things was the one workshop she attended.
“After debriefing the “chalk-talk” experience, we are sent off to our first workshop. I decide to attend, “What the Bible Says and Doesn’t Say About Homosexuality” presented by Rev. Nancy Wilson and Rev. Dr. Mel White. Mel White is a passionate and articulate man who makes it clear from the beginning of the workshop that he has absolutely no desire whatsoever to discuss the biblical passages on homosexuality. Over the years he has suffered a barrage of debates on the issue and he is thoroughly burnt out. He refuses to engage in the discussion any longer. Instead, he passes out a booklet he has written on the subject and tells us to read it. Then, he encourages us to refrain from discussing the Bible with conservative Christians because fundamentalists have no interest in sincere dialogue. Mel also encourages us not to engage in the debate for another reason. By having the conversation, we expose ourselves over and over again to the “lie” that homosexuality is wrong, and when heard repeatedly, “deep down inside you will wonder if they are right.”
James (Mel) White’s remarks appear to point to a rather severe case of truthphobia. Perhaps he fears that what happened to this woman and this man will happen to him, if he hears the truth. The Apostle Paul was on point when he said in 2 Timothy 4:3,4 (NIV): For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
Ms Keen continues:
“Mel passes the biblical discussion on to Nancy Wilson [Wilson is at the head moderator of MCC, succeeding founder Troy Perry]. She focuses her presentation on the use of the word “eunuch” in Scripture. She concludes that “eunuch” refers to a gay person. Even the magi who brought gifts to Jesus were gay, she says. At this a young man in the audience raises his hand and comments, “One of the criticisms of pro-gay theology is that we see gay in every passage [of the Bible]. The magi as gay seems like a stretch.” Nancy replies that the magi were gay because, as court officials, they were eunuchs. However, she goes on to admit she sometimes overstates her case. For example, she cannot say one way or another whether Ruth and Naomi ever had a sexual relationship. However, she uses her imagination to see gay people in the Bible. Nancy tells us that since gay people have been ignored in the Bible for 2,000 years, it’s okay to use our imagination to see ourselves in it—even if it means stretching things a bit.”
For the leader of a alleged Christian denomination, Rev. Wilson makes some astonishingly unChristian statements:
(1)All eunuchs or any eunuchs are homosexuals
(2) The magi or three wise men were homosexuals
(3) Due to invisibility, its okay to use one’s “imagination” when reading and interpreting the Bible
What process of theological study or exegetical discipline did Rev. Wilson use to arrive at these uncommon conclusions? Simular to Bishop Yvette Flunder’s wild, wild wilderness allegory, the Jesus MCC’s church’s bogus claims of homosexual relationships in the Bible (which notably contradict their presiding moderator’s statements of nonexistence) and Peterson Toscano’sbizarre biblical transsexual tale, these conclusions are not the result of sound doctrine or even sound reasoning, but Rev. Wilson’s very vain imagination.
Gay Christian Movement Watch 
Truthphobia! That is DEFINITELY THE correct word for it!
Their own quoted words included here in your post unequivocably condemn their lies, too!
It’s truly amazing to me that people can be so easily deceived on this issue. But the Bible warns us of such deception. Placing the Bible “out of the way” is so convenient for the “Mel Whites” of the world. It is the only source from which these dear homosexual people can hear the absolute truth and be released from his “sheep in wolves clothing” blatant, heresy of lies! What’s even more astonishing is the fact that they admit they are omitting the truth from the Scriptures! Talk about “having one’s ears tickled” and “exchanging the truth for a lie!”
Christine, this was, as you said… unbelieveable. Shocking, and a stunning admission of complete disregard for even the basic integrity necessary to interpret the Word of God.
Unfortunately, this is what is showing up at the Christian college campuses ala the “Equality Riders” with their message of “love and acceptance”.
I am currently reading an excellent book written by Greg Laurie called, “The Great Compromise.”
Although it was written back in 1994, it is almost prophetic regarding the current gay christian movement compromise in the chapter called, “What’s Your Golden Calf?”
In the section labeled, “A few modern idols”, Greg writes:
“Idols can be lots of things. Let’s list a few things that qualify as idols.
1. Other people While the Israelites’ second idol took the form of a golden calf, their first idol – believe it or not – was Moses. To the Israelites, their godly leader – a man known for his upright lifestyle and personal integrity – was an icon. By his godly and uncompromising lifestyle he was able, apparently, to single-handedly keep two to three million people from turning to idolatry. But the minute he was out of the picture, they flocked to it. (bold mine)
The minute Moses went up to the mountain, the Israelites started looking for a loophole. Essentially, what they were saying was: “Look, Moses was a great guy, and we really respect him as a man of integrity and godliness. But he’s just a little too spiritual for us. We can’t live that way. In fact, we don’t want to live that way. What we need is an easy religion that will fit our lifestyle. We’ve decided to lower our standards a bit. We need a god we can touch – one who appleals to the senses.” (bold mine)
There are many people today who are able to stand strong when they’re around other Christians. But when you get them off by themselves, they quickly blend into the woodwork. They begin to lower their standards. And before you know it, they’ve fallen victim to compromise. Aaron was put to such a test, and he failed miserably. Had he been able to stand strong for the Lord, he might have turned the people back from their idolatry. Instead, he helped them toward it.
I want to clarify some things about Mel’s comments. I feel that my blog post has been misrepresented here. Mel was not giving some kind of “order” to his people not to talk about the Bible. He was encouraging folks not to waste their time engaging on the biblical debate about homosexuality because the conservative side won’t listen. And, that is true. The conservative side doesn’t feel there is anything to discuss. Truth is truth and that’s the end of the discussion. Mel has been seriously burned and mistreated by fundamentalists. I may not agree with his view on homosexuality, but I do believe in treating him with respect as a human being. His comments were in the context of being weary of trying to dialogue with people who aren’t interested in dialoguing. Having grown up in fundamentalism, I know what it is like to talk to a Bible-thumper who looks past me and hears nothing I say because they know they are already right about what ever issue it is.
My desire is to treat those I disagree with respectfully, and going to the Survivor conference was a way for me to be more understanding of these individuals. Please do not use my blog post to fuel negative attitudes towards another person. Thanks
Ms Keen thanks for your clarification.
You disagree with our use of the word “order”, but there was nothing in your account –specific or implied– indicating he gave them a choice or encouraged any type of choice as to dealing with “conservatives” or discussing the Bible with them. If he did, please add those comments. We’d happy to post them.
You also may feel that your post was used to “fuel negative attitudes”. That may be a misplaced issue, considering the tremendous amount of damage Mel White is orchestrating at the expense of people’s eternal destinies. Perhaps Christians should be much more concerned with an offense to God, than man.
However, our discussion here of Mel White is not in a vacuum. He has, on numerous occasions, used perjorative and punitive language to describe the “conservatives” he seems to have little tolerance for.
Perhaps you observed him in a weakened moment but hardly an innocent victim.
Perhaps Ms. Keen might be a little more “Keen” in realizing the reality of her own words. She says she agrees the Conservative side doesn’t feel there is anything to discuss.
Let’s get a few things “straight” here.
Let’s use the proper terminology: the Biblical side, not COnservative, is more appropriate.
Secondly, there isn’t anything more we need to add to God’s finality on the subject of homosexuality.
Finally, Mel White was the one who declared, “The debate is OVER.” You’ll find that right on Soulforce’s website.
Hopefully Ms. Keen, while thinking she may be doing a loving and “tolerable” thing – actually is already being slammed by gay activists for being “narrow minded.”
Wisdom is required here. They are out to change YOUR mind Ms. Keen, just as you KNOW you were praying to hopefully change some one’s there.
What fellowship hath light with darkness?
NONE.
Evangelize the unrepentant homosexual with the ONLY thing that can set them free: the Word of God.
Wisdom, youre right. The angry treastise is on Mel White’s site. Why we cant wait.
In it White declares and ORDERS those following him not to talk about homosexuality (in the Christian context) unless said Christian completely agrees with homosexual ideology. We have produced a mountain of biblical evidence that homosexual ideology/theology is completely at odds with foundational biblical truth. We should then abandon God’s declared, unchanging word to make Mel White happy?
In case there’s any doubt he says:
“I will sit down with anyone who comes to the table with certain basic positive assumptions about us: that we are here, millions of us, and have the right to be; that our sexual orientation, too, is a gift from our Creator who is pleased when we accept the gift with gratitude and pride; that on average we live productive and responsible lives; that we are perfectly capable of loving, committed relationships and are as equipped as heterosexuals to have families of our own; that uncounted millions of us are people of faith who serve our faith communities with creativity and commitment and patriotic Americans who serve our nation with courage and with honor; that we don’t seek “special rights” just the rights and protections guaranteed all Americans by the Constitution. Our dignity, our integrity, our right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, our unqualified acceptance by our Creator are not up for debate.”
Our bold. What is there to discuss, when he demands 100% concession from us?
Mel White may be too personally exhausted to debate his humanity with certain Christians unwilling for real dialogue but that is certainly not the message of the Equality Ride.
At each and every school, Equality Riders confronted scripture head on with students, faculty, and administration. They opened their Bibles, read passages together, discussed them, prayed, and fellowshipped. It is an extreme mischaracterization to say that Equality Ride disregards the Bible; quite conversely, the Riders take it very seriously.
There was a time when people believed that the Bible spoke with finality on the place of Earth in the universe, the authority of the pope, ownership of women, and forced labor. There was also a time when people thought the Bible spoke with finality on Christ’s authority, on the power of prayer, and on the sanctity of life. Open evaluation has shown that in some cases the Bible does and in some it does not.
Ignoring 1 Thessalonian’s call to “test everything and hold fast to that which is good” is not the Christian thing to do, but rather blatantly counter Biblical.
I’ll be hoping back to some old posts soon.
Brian,
What gay reprobate theology is trying to do is call “that which is good evil; and that which is evil, good.”
The Bible says homosexual behavior is sin. Period. Sin is evil in action.
Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
In addition, you took 1 Thessalonians out of context. The admonition to “test everything” is to test it(everything) against the absolute truth (in this case, the absolute moral truth that “a man should not lie with a man as with a woman. It is abomination,”) of God’s Word, not the words of a false teacher like White.
The second part of that verse tells us to “hold fast to that which is good.” Homosexual behavior is never mentioned as good in the Bible.
Brian wrote:
“Mel White may be too personally exhausted to debate his humanity…”
Hold up right there. Debate his humanity? What is that? Reprobate theology “new-speak”?
Sorry Brian, but Mel is guilty of trying to take away the believer’s greatest weapon against temptation and falling into sin…God’s Word.
Ephesians chapter 6 gives us a list of various pieces of spiritual armor that believers are to “wear.” They are “pieces of armor” that provide powerful protection against the enemy’s devices. Most are defensive in nature, but the one offensive weapon is the sword of the Spirit. It is with the sword of the Spirit that we take offensive position against the enemy of our souls, driving him away as Jesus did when he countered each of Satan’s accusations with, “It is written…It is written etc.!” Because the Word was in Jesus, He was able to draw it out from memory and use it effectively against Satan.
We, as believers, are called to do the same thing! When the devil begins to tempt us and challenge us to believe anything except the infallibility of God’s Word, we must respond with, “It is written….It is written” just the way Jesus did!
The fact that Mel White desires to take that off the table in the challenge of debate and responses (to the current gay theology challenges of Scripture,) shows unequivocably in which direction he is leading people. That being, a downward spiral away from God’s truth!!
Without a working knowledge of Scripture, one is likely to be duped into deception.
And, what’s even worse, is that unsuspecting people can become a casualty in this spiritual battle that we are in. That is what it is, Brian. It’s not a battle between “this kind of Christian or that kind of sexual person” etc. It’s a battle for the hearts, minds, souls and spirits of people who proclaim Jesus as Lord and Savior! The “fleshly stage” that this battle appears to be in is not the true battleground. The battleground is spiritual and eternity of every soul weighs in the balance!
Brian, everyone here is trying to reach you with the truth! We love you and care for you so much that we are willing to tell you that Satan is doing everything possible to distract you with every “weapon” he has in his arsenal! Do you understand what I’m telling you?
This is the bottom line. Jesus used the Word of God against the devil precisely because only the Word of God will put him (Satan) to flight!
Pastor Greg Laurie has been quoted as saying the following about the Bible, “Sin will keep you from this book, and this book will keep you from sin.”
That just about covers it, doesn’t it?
We need to know the Bible. Don’t follow anyone who tells you otherwise!
My point is not that we should be so tolerant that we do not stand for truth. The only reason I made it out of homosexuality is because God has put in me a very strong sense of truth. I went to seminary because I love Scripture and love what God’s wonderful Word does to bring life and and goodness to us as it shapes us to be more like Him.
My concern is that Christians too often spend way too much time getting angry over their opponents. The Apostle Paul said, “Do not be alarmed at your opponents.” Conservative Christians spend so much time preaching to the choir about how society is going to pot and who is doing what that they shouldn’t be. What good is an angry choir? What good is it to sit and stew over Mel? Would our energy not be better spent on the sheep–showing them God’s grace? People out side the church hear the angry, bickering and stewing Christians do over their opponent and they see nothing they want.
The conservative church needs to learn to preach less to the choir and learn how to cross-culturally communicate with our society. Our society doesn’t understand all our weird Christianese and talk of battles and devils and such.
Karen, if you will allow, we need to address first your assumptions about GCM Watch.
1. We are “angry at our opponents”.
We are here to expose what what we believe is a clear and sustained violation of foundational Christian/Biblical teaching. To speak in generalities would prove inneffective since those involved are public in their pronunciations. To suggest we are angry injects a tone of personal animus towards the detractors of Biblical sexual ethics. Although the scripture gives allowance for anger(Eph 4:26), it restricts us from turning our anger into sin. Pointing out false doctrine in the public arena cannot be classified as sin. I will agree with you that some Christians are angry at homosexuals and do sin because of it. GCM Watch is not among those. If you feel we are, please cite specific examples.
2. We are “conservative Christians” or “bible thumpers”.
If this is a political labeling courtesy of our “opponents”, then again it is inapplicable here. Some who embrace that label for themselves do indeed preach to the choir, but it is unfair to make it a negative considering Jesus spent much of his time preaching to a choir of 12. Preaching to the choir is a necessary compentent of building strong disciples willing to follow Jesus despite cultural vissitudes.
3. We are “stewing” over Mel
Perhaps a poor choice of words but your point is made. Our postings on Mel White as a pivotal leader and “visionary” in the gay christian movement serves our readership in two ways. First by examination of Mel White’s public statements, actions and policy we educate. Secondly, by examination against Biblical doctrine, we declare our support for what is true. As you pointed out, truth is not up for compromise. There’s no disrespect or mistreatment in examining what we stated. Any adherent of the gay christian movement is welcome here to defend or discuss our postings as long as they abide our comment policy. But, they have been “strongly encouraged” by Mel White not to discuss it biblically.
Your perspective is valid and well taken. Like yourself, it is our love for God and desire to obey and defend his truthful commands that compel us in our operation.
That being said, your remarks are being debated around the blogosphere. Perhaps you were not aware that the organizers of the Beyondexgay conference were hoping for just that: controversy and disagreement over their beliefs and statement which would facilitate additional exposure. We would highly caution against future “dinners”.
I was not making any particular point about GCM Watch. I was speaking in general terms about some segments within Christian circles–of which I was a part of for many years. I really don’t know enough about GCM Watch to make any comment or judgement about it. I think I will just stop commenting on this particular thread as I don’t think what I am trying to say is being understood very well. Sometimes (or often) the blogosphere is not the best place to have a discussion. Too easy to misunderstand each other.
I think that your view of Mel White may be overstated. He may have been the founder of Soulforce but he no longer runs the organization. Jeff Lutes has taken over as executive director. I also think you may be overestimating his authority. Mel White is not a gay Christian equivalent to the pope. His opinions are just that, his opinions. There is no “ordering” involved.
I was not present for the particular discussion, but I believe Mel White is personally exhausted from endless so-called discussions with so-called Christians who are all too quick to dismiss his relationship with God and Christ, all too quick to ignore the example sent by Jesus, all to quick to prejudge and refuse to enter into spirit-guided discernment. From my brief time here, I can understand his frustration.
Prov 16:18 Pride goes before destruction, And a haughty spirit before stumbling.
I must believe that real dialogue is possible, I hope you can prove Mel wrong.
Christine, you say “The Bible says homosexual behavior is sin. Period.”
The Bible also says that heterosexual behavior is sin.
Sexuality can (and is!) corrupted by humans. Gang rape, adultery, or abuse are inappropriate for everyone! We can look to scripture and to conscience. The woman caught in adultery, the harems of women, the rape of young girls… these are egregious but do not categorically condemn all straight people; nor should the rape, humiliation, prostitution, sex worship, or sex trade of men with men categorically condemn all gay people.
You do a disservice to God when you manipulate holy words.
Matt 23:13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither enter yourselves, nor allow those who would enter to go in.
Matt 23:15 Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
Matt 23:23-24: Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the Law–justice and mercy and faith; these you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!”
Brian,
Biblically speaking, “heterosexual behavior” indeed is sin, but only in certain scenarios which can be summed up in one sentence.
Out side of the boundaries of the male/female convenant marriage model established by God. Jesus affirmed this exclusive, original standard in Matthew 19:4. There is no record he affirmed any other homo-sexual/emotional arrangement.
Thus, anything and everything else must be sinful.
However, there can be no equating “homosexual behavior” in the same parallel. Homosexual behavior is condemned in any form. There is no justifiable allowance for its expression anywhere in scripture. You did not cite any justification for your premise that homosexual behavior isnt condemned. You constructed a false premise and thus arrived at a false conclusion.
The essential question here for a Christian is what is your response to the evidence that your sexual desires or proclivities are opposite the standard of God?
In short, you repent. Are you willing to repent to God and agree that he is right and you are wrong?
I’m concerned at your usage of Matthew 19 in this instance to justify your claim that the male/female covenant is exclusively affirmed by Jesus.
In Matthew 19, Jesus is clearly and specifically addressing the issue of divorce. Your attempts to generalize his response as an exclusionary statement contradict the clear and direct purpose of the Scriptures.
Matt 19:1 When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan.
2 Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.
3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”
I’m surprised by your twisting of Christ’s words in this case. I understand how you may arrive at your conclusion given your (false) context, but when you look at the context of the scripture which you reference, I’m sure you will see that Christ was addressing a specific question and not the absolute nature of all relationships.
If this is the only source for the words of Jesus on this matter, then we are left with an absence of direct teachings on the matter by Jesus. Of course, this lack cannot imply either affirmation or disapproval. The question then becomes, how can we apply the thrust of Christ’s teachings for guidance in this area?
Brian wrote:
“You do a disservice to God when you manipulate holy words.”
Oh please. Your entire premise regarding your acceptance of the heresy that gay christian theology is based on is doing a disservice to God by manipulating His Holy Word, the Bible!
Your question of “how can we apply the thrust of Christ’s teachings for guidance on the subject of same-sex sexual behavior is already condemned as sin and an abomination to God throughout Scripture. To claim otherwise is to be steeped in spiritual delusion.
Please see the GCM’s latest post and link to the article titled “Has God Changed His Mind About Homosexuality?” by Darlene Osborne
Christ is God, the Holy Spirit (God also) inspired the Bible’s writing, So when God declared homosexuality an abomination in the Old Testament, it was in fact Christ (God) who was the one declaring that. So, Christ did say a lot about homosexuality. Everytime God says it in the Bible, Christ (being part of the Godhead) is agreeing with all that is previously written when he proclaims to the Father, “Your word is truth”.
John 1 explains that Christ was (and is) GOD in the flesh and was the Creator who made everything, including every word written by man to be included in the Bible. This unequivocably solidifies the inerrancy of the Bible and supports God’s original proclamations in Scripture that homosexual behavior is sin and an abomination.
*******
By affirming the inerrancy of the Scriptures, we place ourselves under the authority of all the teachings of the Bible.
Robert Saucy
“I’m concerned at your usage of Matthew 19 in this instance to justify your claim that the male/female covenant is exclusively affirmed by Jesus.”
4And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he [God] which made them[the man and the woman] at the beginning made them male and female [there is not continuation of coupling genders and there is a distinction of genders],
5And said, For this cause shall a man [a male] leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife[the female]: and they twain shall be one flesh [covenant marriage].
There is no stretched justification. It is what he said. There is no reading into it nor superimposition onto it. There is no twisting. At the literal rendering, Jesus affirmed a man and a woman as the only model God originally created.
If there is more, then point it out and prove how it includes male/male coupling or female/female coupling, male/animal, etc, etc.
You seem to be arguing the oft refuted silence=approval theory.
The question or rather temptation [is it lawful…?] prompted Jesus’ complete answer. He established FIRST the STANDARD of relationships (man and woman to the exclusion of all others), then preceded to expose the ridiculous hypocrisy of the Pharisees’ question.
Much like we are doing with you and the gay christian movement.
Christine, Time and again you reference select verses in Leviticus yet time and again you ignore requests to elaborate on your usage. By what standard do you decide which guidelines in Leviticus to follow? How do you integrate the priestly code into modern life? What do we make of the many other prohibitions in Leviticus (against mixed fabric garmets, against shellfish, against entering the temple with sores, etc, etc)?
GCMW:Perhaps you missed James’ simple explanation.
Does John 1 also explain that Christ must support OT stipulations of the sabbath (which he explicitly contradicts)? Does it also mean he must support prohibitions against center food (which Peter rescinds)? Does it also mean he upholds laws against interest, the punishment for adultery, the use of mixed fabrics? No, of course not! You and I both understand that Old Testament law is different from the New Testament gospel in many ways! We may currently differ on which particular ways, but both of us understand judgment, reason, and guidance are required synthesize Biblical texts with our individual lives.
GCMW:Again, see James’ explanation
You are also quick to cite the word “abomination.” I would encourage you to look deeper into the Levitical texts from which you are quoting, to read them in entirety and not just select verses you think suit your cause.
I’d also ask you to read scholarship on the word to’evah, which has been translated as “abomination” or “detestable” … you might be surprised to find the to’evah has a very strong cultic connection and implies that which is culturally unJewish. The religion of the ancient Israelites was very much a “our god not your god” mentality, so much so that they had a word–to’evah / abomination–to describe it. Men being intimate with other men was most closely associated with sex worship of other religions in addition to disrupting the patriarchal system of procreation that was so vital in those times.
GCMW:You have stated rightly, homosexual culture began with sexual cult worship and continues in that same abominable trait. It was all condemned. Wicked Jewish kings permitted it, righteous ones destroyed their idolatry (1Kings 14:22-24
1Kings 15:11-13, 1Kings 22:43;46, 2Kings 23:4-7). Nothing is new, just renamed. However, your continuing attempts to redefine OT prohibitions against homosexuality as “man’s word” and not God’s do little more than provide evidence you devalue scripture’s authority, divine origin and co-testamental integrity.
Abomination carries a weight in the English language which it did not carry to the Israelites and was never intended by the God who inspired them.
In ancient Israel, for men to be lying with men was to’evah. It hurt the population’s chances for survival, it was seen as an act of worship to other gods, it subordinated a man and “made him as a woman” which in a time of rampant sexism that viewed women as objects, was highly offensive (interestingly, Leviticus does not speak about lesbians at all). Thankfully, we no longer have to be concerned with ritual purity, we understand that women are not property, sex is not a punishment, and religion is spread by teaching and choice, not by procreation.
GCMW:Brian, we gentiles never had to be concerned with “ritual purity”. At the Jerusalem Council, the apostlic council stipulated that we should (1) keep ourselves from idolatry and (2) abstain from sexual immorality (Acts 21:21-25). We were released from other Jewish traditional religious customs. Laying with a man sexually needs no expository revelation. What exemption are you taking for yourself? If your behavior is the same as theirs and it was wrong, then your sexual behavior with another man is equally wrong. It seems you arguing your homosexuality is somehow purer, better than those biblical homosexuals.
I read Darlene Osborne’s article as soon as GCM Watch posted it and I was dismayed by the rampant proof-texting, minimal explanation, neglect of differing views, and the a priori assumption that being gay is sinful … I could just as easily quote 1 John 4:1 and Matt 7:22-23 against the anti-gay agenda.
Again and again I see an unwillingness to open our minds and our hearts to guidance from the Holy Spirit. Continuously I see a refusal to listen to the stories of God’s LGBT children. Unfortunately I feel a hardening of hearts, a closing down of minds, and a fear of spirit-filled investigation. Why? Over and over and over again I have been asked to reevaluate my position on the morality of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people. Why will the same courtesy not be extended by those who have asked this of me?
GCMW:The Holy Spirit would NEVER diverge from the teachings of God or Christ (John 16:5-14). Neither would he lead us to do so. As to your stories, they are plentiful and full of error. Your stories have been weighed with due examination and adequate investigation against the scripture and found severly lacking.
Here I stand, I can do nothing else. I come and I come with gracious and honest consideration. I believe that conversation can I occur. I bring Scripture when necessary, my experiences when appropriate. I ask questions and I answer questions. I do not know what more I can give.
GCMW:Brian, give your life –all of it– to God. Stop being your own master of sexuality and accept him as Lord. That’s what he requires.
I give you my prayers and the hope that we can move forward together as two children of God who love Him and want to follow His will.
Brian
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::Acts 4:19-20::
“Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God’s sight to obey you rather than God. For we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard.”
Brian,
I will tell you why I won’t “listen to God’s LBGT children” on this issue. It is because God’s Word has already settled the matter in Scripture. To argue about shellfish (a dietary law) as being equal to “a man shall not lie with a man as with a woman, it is abomination” (a moral law that has never been recinded) is just a ridiculous argument.
Here’s just one example of how you typically use Scripture to justify your opinions.
You quoted Acts 4:19-20 at the end of your comment. It appears that you are implying (because earlier, you stated, “Continuously I see a refusal to listen to the stories of God’s LGBT children”) that the verse “for we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard” should be applied to your opinions about same-sex sexual behavior. Sorry Brian, it’s just not going to happen.
Why?
Because you have blatantly taken (yet another) Bible verse out of context by “isolating” it to gain a meaning that was not implied by the original meaning and context. In other words, you are guilty of esogesis.
The best way to avoid such an error is to take the surrounding Scriptures into mind when applying it.
Act 4:17 But that it spread no further among the people, let us straitly threaten them, that they speak henceforth to no man in this name.
Act 4:18 And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus.
Act 4:19 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.
Act 4:20 For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.
As anyone can see, they were answering the objection of “commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus.”
You are not “speaking nor teaching in the name of Jesus” when you disregard what is already a settled matter in Scripture.
Christians are called to discern truth from error. The “plumb line” is what is already written in the Law and the Prophets; not some 20 -21st century new aged gobbledy-gook that is designed to “abolish the Law and the Prophets.” Jesus himself told us that he came to “fulfil,” not to destroy (or abolish).
Did you read my blogpost about Recognizing Spiritual Delusion Brian? It contains further evidence that what you and the homosexual indoctrination theological heresy teachers are trying to do. Distort God’s Word to support a humanistic, secular belief that “homosexual sex is not a sin or abomination” against Holy and Righteous God.
The gay christian movement theology that you currently are following is guilty of at least 6 of the 7 categories that the Bible warns us of avoiding to prevent heresy. God is against any and all false prophets whose spiritual delusion causes them to invent their own message apart from God’s truth.
Also, please see James excellent comments in the “GCM Watch congratulate Venus Publisher” thread.
Brian, it is truly sad to see that you have been duped into such blatant deception by the blatant and obvious theological errors being promoted by the gcm. I will pray that the scales of delusion will one day be lifted off of your spiritual eyes.
Exposing Mel White & Soulforce
This Study Guide and Response has been written to help those swayed by White’s arguments to understand more clearly the strategies White employs and the misunderstandings he creates or exploits in advancing his arguments. You will find in White’s document very little in the way of a deep reading of the message of the Bible. Instead, we encounter a series of arguments-a rhetorical or persuasive strategy-that utilizes the following techniques:
He draws us into reading the Bible through tragic stories of the victimization of gay and lesbian people, stories that are truly tragedies but told in a way that elicits from us guilt and empathy in such a way as to predispose us to distance ourselves from any moral condemnation of homosexual behavior.
He strips or reduces complex scriptural passages to limited core teachings in such a way as to pass over or bury the rich and challenging additional meanings they embody.
He raises doubts and fuels skepticism about the meaning of passages that have been essentially clear in the eyes of the Church for millennia.
In the end, he proposes no clear Christian sexual ethic to replace the one he has sought to displace, rather just leaving us with the vague sense that GLBT people are nice, trustworthy people that we should affirm and accept.
In contrast, I urge you to consider again the core of what we understand to be the Gospel: The sovereign and loving God of the universe made us and loves us. We all are tainted with the contagion of sin, and we all rebel against God. We are all sexual beings by design, and our sexual natures reflect both creation and the fall, and are exceedingly mysterious, complex, deep, and conflicted. God revealed his truth and will for our lives, including his moral guidance for all of humanity, and did so both to diagnose our sinfulness and to guide us in our faltering efforts to follow him and express our love for him. And he sent his son Jesus to die for us and rise in triumph over death for us that we might be forgiven, adopted as his children, and live new lives as we abide in him.
As one small but clear part of his guidance for our lives, we have seen how there is clarity and consistency to the traditional understanding of sexual ethics derived from the Bible, and that in this ethic homosexual conduct is clearly condemned as contrary to God’s will. There are good reasons to see these moral laws as binding today. And quite significantly, we have seen that this Christian understanding offers hope to the homosexual person: hope for forgiveness of sins, hope for release from bondage to sexual and other sins, hope for grace and fulfillment in life submitted to sexual purity and healing, hope that the entire Church will embrace these persons experiencing same-sex attraction as fellow sinners and as fellow disciples who follow the Risen Lord in obedience and humility.
(adapted from the Conclusion to this Study Guide and Response by Stanton L. Jones)
Stanton Jones response
What’s the Truth about Soulforce’s Charges against James Dobson and Focus on the Family?
Brian,
If I’m the “James” you’re referring to, please don’t misunderstand my position. Again, all you have to do to CLEARLY understand the scripture is to look at it from both ways. The book is called “A Strong Delusion” by Joe Dallas. It is complete with simple, yet thorough explanations and refutations of the pro-gay theology, seeing as how the writer himself was an active voice in the gay community until JESUS changed him.
Now, to be an informed “consumer” of truth (at least on this subject), you must read both sides(if you plan to discuss it). I have done it and have come to a logical conclusion. Do the same for yourself if you dare. Plain and simple, I could look for every reason to cheat on my timesheet at work, and mentally find them. However, in the end I am a thief. It’s that simple( this is just an example, folks).
I’m gonna say this and I mean this in the best way to the entire group….this conversation is getting silly. Much respect to all…and great posts by the way! There are some well informed folks out there…
James, if you don’t mind, could you explain what about this thread conversation is you feel is “silly”? We feel that it is very beneficial –your comments included– in light of the current deception perpetrated by gcm proponents. Maybe it was just a word choice, but nevertheless an interesting characterization of the conversation. Thanks, GCM Watch.
As to the “Mel issue” here, it’s not just a matter of who’s right or wrong; it’s a matter of who you are. Who you are (of God or of Devil) determines your vision, i.e. how you see. Mel sees what he is and we see who we are. And there is (should not be) a middle ground – a house divided cannot stand, no matter the house/position. If Mel sees our point (God’s Truth), his point/house crumbles and vice versa. Jesus said choose who you may serve, no man can serve two Gods. Mel is justifiably exhausted because he cannot see what we see/speak. And many of us are allowing ourselves to be exhausted trying to get him and the like to see our position. Evangelism is about spreading the Gospel, not forcing it. We simply keep on movin’, without compromising. And all who are true to God (not man), will NEVER agree or support anything that goes against God’s Word.
Most importantly, I choose to disagree in Love, i.e. I hate the sin not the sinner. We are to hate sin in man, not the man. Many will view it as an ATTACK and UNLOVING, but we know that God’s truth, His Word in application, is LOVE 1John 1:4 – if you see it with God’s eyes, and they can’t, don’t want to. So many deem us to be haters/unloving. Not understanding that we are (should be) moved by LOVE to save them. They make the mistake of tagging God’s definition of Love (Obeying Him) with their own (accept and tolerate anything). Not understanding the driving force of God’s Love: to give us peace, protection, and True Life – in this life and the one to come.
Let’s not forget, anything that is not Light(God) is Darkness(devil): He that committeth sin is of the devil – 1John3:8.
“Jesus said, If ye were blind [to what you want/think], ye should have no sin [God’s Word/Power crucifies all sin/homosexuality]: but now ye say, We see [Your Wants, not God’s]; therefore your sin [in this case homosexuality] remaineth” –John 9:41. The Holy Spirit gives me and all REAL mean and women of God revelation of the Word (is the ONLY true teacher) – John 16:13. All Christians living “willfully” in sin (even pastors/falseprophets) have not the guidance of the Holy spirit. Therefore, they can’t help but be deceived/deceivers, because their revelation comes from man (devil), not God.
Jesus never wasted much time arguing with the “same” people. They pursued Him constantly to argue and criticize Him, but He never pursued them after His point was made. He even resorted to ignoring many when they kept asking Him the same questions over and over again. His entire walk was Love personified, yet many of His own deemed Him a devil, blasphemer, and a liar. Sound familiar? (smiling) Jesus said they hated Him, they will hate us. Jesus said when you see me you are looking at God – John 12:45.
Jesus ONLY spoke God. No, his time on earth did not address homosexuality directly and many other sins, e.g. incest, rape, beastiality, molestation, etc. However, if God hated such sins in the OT, destroyed nations and brought The Flood because of such practices; and Jesus stood for God, Jesus’ EXISTENCE as God come down in the flesh said such is wrong without having to say it – God is the same yesterday, today, tomorrow, and forever. Amen! In all our getting get understanding of God’s Word.
It gets to a place where we have to quit arguing with those who refuse to hear and keep them lifted up in prayer/intercession. And pray that there hearts/eyes be opened – that’s the ONLY way they will see. Even if they don’t agree, the seeds have been planted, i.e. our positions – God’s Truth. Sometimes growth takes place at a later time, not instantly. I am sure, many of our voices haunt them (give them no real peace in their sin), whether they admit this or not – the Word is sharper than any two edged sword, piercing … – Hebrews 4:12.
Blessings & Love ~
for what it’s worth:
I highly doubt is Mel White is a Christian. In his writings, as far as leading Soulforce, he constantly promotes interfaith, claiming as Jesus is one of the ways. I think he poses himself as a Christian, in order to infiltrate Christian churches, his main opponent, and change them.
And yes, I agree, his article “why we can’t wait to end the debate,” serves as an agenda for the Soulforce movement to silence Christians who believe that homoerotic relations are immoral. This is pretty scary, imho. I also agree that Mel White is famous for misinterpreting facts; for intance, in that article, he said that Justice Roy Moore advocated for the execution of homosexuals. This is not true, Moore has never said such a thing. What did Mel White get this idea from?
I see that I am just over half a year behind the last comment but I wanted to inform you and your readership that I have begun to post a Christian apologetics response to Mel White’s “A Biblical Response to the Question People Often Ask…‘How can you consider yourself a Christian when you are also gay?’ What the Bible Says—and Doesn’t Say—about Homosexuality.”
I am posting it in part beginning here.
aDios,
Mariano